Continuous Motion?
 

A1 drives along the endline and secures the ball in her left hand as she jumps for a layup. She is fouled by B1 in the air and the ball pops out of her left hand...while in the air she grabs the ball with both hands in front of her chest and then throws up the ball with the right hand. Ball enters basket. What do you got?

No basket, the try ended when she recovered the ball. 2 shots.

Ouch, I hate this call.

Agreed.


Why?

Not in principal, I would just hate to take this basket away on a very athletic play. It makes sense, and it's the right call; I'd just have a sinking feeling in my chest if I made it.

Is there or has there ever been a case play or rules interp for this play?

I don't recall one for that play specifically, but a try ends when it is certain it will be unsuccessful, and a try that is grabbed out of the air certainly meets that standard.

Bob has referenced 4-41-4, which defines when a try ends. Note that merely touching the ball does not end a try (4.41.4 A).

Excellent applicaton

Not saying who's right or wrong, just trying to further the debate. I don't know that I would deem the action from Rev's scenario as the try starting and ending.

"Jump for the layup" is pretty much the try starting (well, it probably started earlier, but this makes it clear that there is a try in progess).

"Grabs the ball with both hands" is pretty much the end of the try.

If you want to say "the ball pops out of her left hand" is also the end of the try (since she might not have "released the ball"), I could agree in theory with that -- as a practical matter, I'm still calling that part of the try.

Philosophically speaking I personally don't see "...while in the air she grabs the ball with both hands in front of her chest" as ending the try as I don't see ""in the air and the ball pops out of her left hand" as the beginning of the throw or as releasing the ball on a try.

Well, think of it this way: if it were a more ordinary case, she was fouled on the way up, and she released the ball, wouldn't you be calling a shooting foul? Even if the release was "awkward" or "ugly"? So that's probably the start of a try.

The rule specifically states that the try ends "when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful," as Bob has stated. When she catches it, the ball is headed AWAY from the basket. At that point, I'm pretty certain that the throw is unsuccessful.

The ball making two distinct trips toward the basket/backboard -- interrupted by a trip away -- must count as two distinct tries, IMO.

Try?
 

I just have a question: It seems from this sit that the ball was knocked from her hand rather than her actually shooting it. Does this still qualify as a 'try'? I may not be reading this right, but it seems the sequence was up for a shot, ball is knocked from her hand, she recovers ball and shoots with right hand before landing again. Is this correct?

Is the ball popping out of her hand a distinct trip or simply a fumble?
I’m not saying one way or another because I'm not quite sure. Because if this scenario happens except she never leaves the floor, I would certainly wave the basket. However, if she leaves the floor and fumbles the ball due to contact, recovers and gets the ball off before landing, I think I would count it.

That is the same question I ask. It's why I asked earlier in the thread if there was ever a case play or rules interp. I'm not saying I'm right or anybody else is wrong--but right now I think this play is open to personal interpretation.

When does the try begin? "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball." During a layup that can be quite a bit before the actual attempted release of the ball.

A try can begin way before the throw begins.

If the foul occurs before the player catches the ball and throws it toward the basket, then how could the foul possibly be during that try?
If you believe that the player was in the act of shooting when fouled, but then the player loses control of the ball, there is NO WAY that you can score a goal made by later obtaining control again and then throwing the ball into the basket.


But can it begin before the player has the ball?

Consider this:
If A1 doesn't have the ball, but jumps into the air and is fouled, then catches a pass from a teammate or a rebound from a missed try and shoots, would you count the goal?

I do not believe this to be relavent to the converstation.

Why not? Again, I never argued who was right or wrong, but I did ask for some sort of citation (case/rule/interp) and one has not been produced yet. I'm even willing to entertain someone stringing together a few rules to draw a conclusion.

I wouldn't have to b/c I never would have blown my whistle in the first place. :D

All in a split-second
 

So I was L...watched player drive towards me and saw the foul...ball out, caught, (re)-shot, basket went in...

In my head in the matter of a split-second I said to myself...she's fouled on the shot...the try ended when she caught the ball...ball is dead...she shot a dead ball.

Great discussion. As I waved off the basket and awarded two shots everyone in the gym wanted to know why she was shooting two if the basket didn't count...

I was reading for a different question and found this:
6-7-9 Exception c. ...The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight....

Is that from the NFHS Case Book? I don't have it with me right now.

No, that's from the NFHS rule book under the rule for when the ball becomes dead.

Oops, all 'dashes'.

Entertain this.....

1) A player is trying for goal when " when the player <font color = red>has</font> the ball and in the official's judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal." Rule 4-41-2

2) If the player "has" the ball, the player is holding the ball and has <font color = red>player control</font>. Rule 4-12-1.

3) In this situation, the player loses player control on either (a) the ball being in flight during a try (4-12-6) <b>or</b> because of a loose ball caused by an opponent' touch(9-5-2). Your choice, News.

4) In both cases in #3, the player re-gains player control when he/she again grabs the ball. Rule 4-12-1.

5) If you judged...and this is a judgment call.....that the player attempted a try and the ball then touched a defender as in 3a above, then the try ended when it was certain that it was unsuccessful. Rule 4-41-4. And it was certain that it was unsuccessful when the shooter again established player control by grabbing the ball before it went in the basket(4-12-1).

6) If you alternatively judged that the shooter lost player control <b>during</b> the try because of the loose ball caused by an opponent's touch, foul or partial block as in 3b above, that try also ended when the shooter again grabbed the loose ball, thus making certain the initial try was unsuccessful(4-41-4).

7) In both cases, the shooter after retrieving the loose ball(thus re-establishing player control) can legally come down with the ball or shoot/pass before he/she comes down.Case book play 9.5.1.

8) And also in both scenarios, if a foul was called on the defense before the try ended with the shooter re-gaining player control, the ball was dead as soon as that try ended and any subsequent try would be no good(you can't score with a dead ball-rule 5-1-1). See Rules 6-7-7 and 6-7EXCEPTIONa&c.

Now that's entertainment. ;)