"Providing the Roster"
 

I don't have my books handy, but a team is issued a T for something like "failing to provide it's roster and 5 starters to the official scorer at least 10 minutes before the start of the game."

What does "provide" mean?

Play: Midway through the third quarter, Visitor 00 enters (otherwise legally) the game. The table buzzes, and indicates that 00 isn't in the book. I asked the table, "What information did the visitors give you to enter in the book?" and the table hands me a printed roster, with no 00. So, I take the sheet to the visitor book (on the bench, not at the table) and ask if that's what they provided. The answer comes, "Yes, and I told the scorer to add 00 to the list." The official scorer denies getting the verbal instruction.

So, did the visitors comply with the rule, or did they earn a T?

I don't have my books to read the exact rule, but I'd assess the T in this instance. There certainly is no way for you to know if the verbal instruction was given or not, for one thing, but secondly, I would judge "provide" to mean something more than just "add 00 to the list," especially if it's said in a way that doesn't provide assurance that the player was added.

I agree with JDW. I think a technical is in order. If they truly said to the scorer "add 00 as well", they should have stayed until 00 was written in the book.

-Josh

If you have the head coaches approve the book's entries before the game, there is NO QUESTION who was in the book and who wasn't. :D

BJ: I thought you always have your books w/ you...
 

"I told the scorer to add '00' to the book" carries as much weight as "I told my team not to foul."

Agreed, but that's not SOP here.

I would say yes they provided a roster. However, it wasn't a complete roster and if they want 00 to play it's going to cost them a T.

"At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul (see 10-1-1 Penalty)."

This has always meant to me that they give the information over. It is not anyone's responsibility to make sure it is in the book. That is the scorekeeper's responsibility. In this situation you have to make a decision. If you want to split hair over what was said in conversation then you can do that here. I would hope that most teams would use their team's score book as a guide but that does not always happen. It is just like you have to decide if a mistake in the book is because of the scorekeeper writing down the wrong number of if they were not provided the right information. Bottom line, this is what we get paid the big bucks for.

Peace

I don't think this answers the question, but merely changes the question from interpreting 'provide' to interpreting 'supply'. Information can be supplied verbally, after all.

I'm in the camp that will assess a T for 00 to enter. The only verifiable info supplied or provided by the visitors was the written lineup. If the visitors complained, I would say, "next time be sure to write your entire lineup."

It would be interesting to know whether 00 was in the visitor's book.

Yes, 00 was in the visitor's book.

You're right. It's not an answer. But I figured I'd post the text so everybody didn't have to go look it up. ;)

Did you and your partner count the number of players on each team during warm ups? If so, did the number of players you had agree with the number of players entered into the official score book? If the numbers did agree then you have may a player who is wearing a different number from the one is listed in the book.

Point being, is this something that could have be caught before the 10 minute mark?

Interesting.

Often around here we'll see the visitors just hand their book over to the home scorekeeper to copy the lineup. That would have solved the problem.

What did you end up doing?

Gotcha. I apologize for misinterpreting your italics. :o

If he's not listed, he's not supplied as far as I'm concerned.

What didn't the R catch that one book had more players than the other?

Not answering for the OP, but around here we only check the official book.

We do typically count players warming up and make sure there are more in the book than on the court.

We only check the official book, and given the specifics of this game, there were never (or at least rarely) all the players out for warm ups at any given moment, so all we could do was see that there were "about" 10 players and "at least" 10 names in the book.

Given that the visitors were behind something like 49-27 when this came up, and given the visitor's scorekeeper's (who was a HS kid at a religious school -- the game was between two schools that aren't even part of the IHSA)assertion that he told ("supplied") the home scorekeeper to add the name, I decided that the best thing to do was ignore the T. That doesn't mean that's what I'd do in a different circumstance -- thus my question as to what "supply" means.

Until they clarify this procedure, it is whatever you want that word to mean. There is no specific answer to that question in this specific situation. So if you feel the proper information was submitted, that is good enough for me. Now someone else might feel differently, but they should give an official reason why you would be wrong if you took the word of one of the parities. This is just a hole in the rule and that is why the NF changes language and clarifies what they mean with rules like this. I doubt this will change soon, but if it does that is the only time we can decide what the policy should be no matter what.

Peace

The Provisions State ...
 

Same in Connecticut.

Verification
 

This is exactly why I ask coaches to verify what is on the rosters I print from MaxPreps and make any additions/subtractions necessary before filling in my book.

Why would you even use such a resource in the first place? I would think that not many people from a school would be constantly updating that information. I have even found the school websites are almost never updated. I would think that would cause all kinds of problems with information.

Peace

Here in my little corner of Washington State, the floor officials check the official book for the # of players suited up. The other book is checked as well, but only if numbers don't add up.

At my game on Friday, the PA announcer printed the roster from some internet source and got the wrong school.

Accurate Here!
 

The schools in my part of Southern California all do a pretty good job of at least putting a roster on MaxPreps which is always accurate! If they don't then I'll have that particular head coach write in his team and mark his starters.

You cannot even get updated information about the current team on the school's websites around here, let alone a high school site like MaxPreps. That has to be a regional issue that most of us probably would be weary to use.

Peace

Bob,
JRut is correct that this is a bit of a hole in the rules in terms of definition. In Central Ohio, we also count players and employ an "at least x number". In addition, I check that the two books match player countwise (customarily, we are asked to sign both books).

My attempt at logic here is the following:
1. The team was able to put the rest of the roster on paper with all names, numbers and starters listed.
2. A PENCIL/PEN was available at the scorer's table.
3. The visiting team had an opportunity to pick up said PENCIL/PEN to simply update their preprinted roster.

Conclusion: If team is behind by less than 20 points, I would issue a "T" (I call this the Jenkins Rule). I quite probably would have done what Bob did in this situation. But, had it been a competitive game, the team's decision to take a short cut would have been penalized. If we start accepting verbal communication in such cases, a whole can of worms with which we do not wish to deal would be opened.

The rule does not state that a "written" roster and 5 designated starters - so technically - a case could be made that verbally providing the roster/starters would be acceptable.

Just adding the word "written" could solve a lot of problems.

Are we talking FED or NCAA?

IT was a FED game, but I think this rule is the same.

Okay, just checking. I know on the NC2A-W side:

Section 3. Lineup

Art. 1.

I would disagree with this, whereas who is a coach going to verbally supply information to the official scorer and how is he/she going to remember it? The key would is supply, which means basically to give something....

Does this mean the rule is different on the Men's side?

And secondly, where does it say in any rules that the information has to be in the book at the 10 minute mark? ;)

Peace

Have no idea what the NC2A-M do and I didnt say that the information had to be in the book, I put in bold, shall supply. The rule that I stated above was the NCAA rule interpretation.

Of course the names don't have to be in the book by the 10-minute mark. That's not the rule at any level, and not the question being discussed here.

I think in this case you could justify giving or not giving a T. I would lean toward giving it. If the visiting team supplies a written roster with a verbal addendum, and they don't follow up to ensure the official book got the addendum, that's their fault IMHO. It takes 5 seconds to scribble the additional name/number on the roster and it eliminates any he-said/she-said.