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-   -   Causing concussions (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/55794-causing-concussions.html)

Raymond Fri Dec 11, 2009 08:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641606)
As I stated before, I have a couple of Neurological disorders, & I have been told several times never to mess around with an injury to the head, or when a loss of consciousness occurs.

As I stated earlier, I did not know of anyone there that was trained medical personnel. I did not see the proper precautions/procedures being put into action.

When I was Boys' Basketball Manager back in 1997-1998, I saw a similar play happen, with similar results. Only the player got shoved head first into wood bleachers.

I know of the medical release forms from participating in track in 8th grade.

When I was going through the area of the WIAA Online Rules Clinic dealing with concussions earlier, I couldn't stop thinking of the situation, of what should of/could of been done differently.

I cannot help if I am concerned about a person's well being/safety.
What exactly are you asking us as officials? We cannot control what happens to a player (other than denying re-entry into the game) after a player is injured.

chseagle Fri Dec 11, 2009 02:40pm
I was asking for thoughts &/or opinions as I was figuring some on here might have coached before becoming officials.

Basically I was asking, if you were in the coach's shoes, how would you have handled the incident?

If you've had previous playing experience where something like this happened, what would you, from a player's POV, have wanted the coach to do?

The incident happened Tuesday night, I've giving the coach the benefit of the doubt that medical attention will be sought (although I am thinking it should of happened immediately afterwards). When I go in on Saturday to work crowd control for the Wrestling Invite & Scoreboad/Timer/Shot Clock/Crowd Control for the Boys' Basketball Games, I'll be asking the AD if the procedures are being followed as how I understand things & get his input as well.

Smitty Fri Dec 11, 2009 02:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641767)
I was asking for thoughts &/or opinions as I was figuring some on here might have coached before becoming officials.

Basically I was asking, if you were in the coach's shoes, how would you have handled the incident?

If you've had previous playing experience where something like this happened, what would you, from a player's POV, have wanted the coach to do?

The incident happened Tuesday night, I've giving the coach the benefit of the doubt that medical attention will be sought (although I am thinking it should of happened immediately afterwards). When I go in on Saturday to work crowd control for the Wrestling Invite & Scoreboad/Timer/Shot Clock/Crowd Control for the Boys' Basketball Games, I'll be asking the AD if the procedures are being followed as how I understand things & get his input as well.
I'm not convinced that was your motive when you originally posted - I think you changed your perspective once you got a bunch of answers you didn't want to hear. If you wanted a coach's perspective, why didn't you just post the question in a coach's forum?

I am again wondering what answer would satisfy you? :confused:

chseagle Fri Dec 11, 2009 03:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 641768)
I'm not convinced that was your motive when you originally posted - I think you changed your perspective once you got a bunch of answers you didn't want to hear. If you wanted a coach's perspective, why didn't you just post the question in a coach's forum?

I am again wondering what answer would satisfy you? :confused:
Am just trying to get thoughts &/or opinions on how different people would of handled the situation, if they were in the HC's, player's, &/or parents' shoes.

I'm a bit angered at the HC for how he handled the incident, but at the same time the benefit of the doubt should be given as I know he's been HC for at least 20 years. It's because of giving the HC the benefit of the doubt, that I haven't gone up to the school, continually questioning the HC about how he handled the situation.

I realize after rereading my original posting that I did leave out some stuff, that I added in later postings. That my reasoning for asking was not being clearly identified.

Adam Fri Dec 11, 2009 03:12pm
Consider that the HC has "been there done that." It's like being a parent. With the first child, you panic at the first sneeze and come running at the first wimper. By the time even your second child is a toddler, you learn wich cries require attention and which ones are best ignored. Do you always make the right choice? No.

Also, your OP insinuated the officials purposefully didn't call something. By your description, a foul should have been called. However, I would bet money the official didn't see it the same way you did, or he would have called the foul.

chseagle Fri Dec 11, 2009 03:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 641785)
Consider that the HC has "been there done that." It's like being a parent. With the first child, you panic at the first sneeze and come running at the first wimper. By the time even your second child is a toddler, you learn wich cries require attention and which ones are best ignored. Do you always make the right choice? No.

Also, your OP insinuated the officials purposefully didn't call something. By your description, a foul should have been called. However, I would bet money the official didn't see it the same way you did, or he would have called the foul.
If I was right there in front of the play, I would of seen things a bit different. Unfortunately I was not. I know there's going to be differences as to how plays are seen depending on a person's POV. As how I saw it, the visitng player forcefully pushed the home player, but if I would of viewed the play from right next to it, it could of been that the visiting player had enough momentum that although she had stopped, her body or arm had enough residual energy for the result to occur as it did.

mbyron Fri Dec 11, 2009 03:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 641785)
It's like being a parent. With the first child, you panic at the first sneeze and come running at the first wimper. By the time even your second child is a toddler, you learn which cries require attention and which ones are best ignored.
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but your remark reminds me of the following definition from the Parents' Dictionary:

sterilize: vt. What one does to one's first baby's pacifier by boiling it, and one's last baby's pacifier by blowing on it.

Adam Fri Dec 11, 2009 03:29pm
Or, both players were jumping into each other and therefore neither could rightfully be called for a foul. All sorts of possibilities. I am glad you recognize that, though.

bob jenkins Fri Dec 11, 2009 04:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641777)
Am just trying to get thoughts &/or opinions on how different people would of handled the situation, if they were in the HC's, player's, &/or parents' shoes.

HC: Evaluate the situation and call for medical / trainer assistance if needed. That was apparently done (and decided it wasn't needed).

Players: Get back to the game.

Parent: Assess the situation from the stands and decide whether to get involved. Probably not given the information you've given us. No way of determining whether this was done.

There's no way for any of us here to decide whether the coach's actions were in any way deficient. That's why none of us has given an answer that you seem to want. And, unless you're trained in this, my advice would be to STFU about it (at your school).

chseagle Fri Dec 11, 2009 04:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641777)
Am just trying to get thoughts &/or opinions on how different people would of handled the situation, if they were in the HC's, player's, &/or parents' shoes.

I'm a bit angered at the HC for how he handled the incident, but at the same time the benefit of the doubt should be given as I know he's been HC for at least 20 years. It's because of giving the HC the benefit of the doubt, that I haven't gone up to the school, continually questioning the HC about how he handled the situation.

I realize after rereading my original posting that I did leave out some stuff, that I added in later postings. That my reasoning for asking was not being clearly identified.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 641819)
HC: Evaluate the situation and call for medical / trainer assistance if needed. That was apparently done (and decided it wasn't needed).

Players: Get back to the game.

Parent: Assess the situation from the stands and decide whether to get involved. Probably not given the information you've given us. No way of determining whether this was done.

There's no way for any of us here to decide whether the coach's actions were in any way deficient. That's why none of us has given an answer that you seem to want. And, unless you're trained in this, my advice would be to STFU about it (at your school).
I'm just trying to get an appropriate interpretation as to the new Concussion Management regulations, considering it's a state law now. From my understanding, the Lystedt Law is the first of it's kind in the US.

Like I stated above in my previous post, I'm giving the HC the benefit of the doubt that after the game he took the additional steps needed. When I go in Saturday, I'll be asking the AD if the player's alright, mentioning the fact I am concerned about her health/well being, especially after reading the WIAA Online Rules Clinic section concerning concussion management. This way, I can get an in-person interpretation of what I read, so that I can have a better understanding.

My alma matter is located in a small farming community, & I'm sure I'm not the only spectator that's concerned about the player.

Raymond Fri Dec 11, 2009 04:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641822)
I'm just trying to get an appropriate interpretation as to the new Concussion Management regulations, considering it's a state law now. From my understanding, the Lystedt Law is the first of it's kind in the US.

Like I stated above in my previous post, I'm giving the HC the benefit of the doubt that after the game he took the additional steps needed. When I go in Saturday, I'll be asking the AD if the player's alright, mentioning the fact I am concerned about her health/well being, especially after reading the WIAA Online Rules Clinic section concerning concussion management. This way, I can get an in-person interpretation of what I read, so that I can have a better understanding.

My alma matter is located in a small farming community, & I'm sure I'm not the only spectator that's concerned about the player.

These concerns would be more appropriate for the AD, principal, or school board.

bob jenkins Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641822)
I'm just trying to get an appropriate interpretation as to the new Concussion Management regulations, considering it's a state law now.
Unless the law requires you, in whatever role you had at that game, to get involved, then your interpretation, just as with the assistant coach checking the book, should be to ignore it.

Look, I like people who do more than the minimum. I don't like people who say, "it's not my job." But, you need to recognize that not every little thing that goes on in the gym is something that you should get involved in.

chseagle Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 641874)
Unless the law requires you, in whatever role you had at that game, to get involved, then your interpretation, just as with the assistant coach checking the book, should be to ignore it.

Look, I like people who do more than the minimum. I don't like people who say, "it's not my job." But, you need to recognize that not every little thing that goes on in the gym is something that you should get involved in.
I was just a spectator to the events, as the whole time I was behind the scorers' table as crowd control to make sure no unauthorized personnel went into the locker room area.

I have been rethinking things, & came to the conclusion that I feel that way I do because of having the different neurological conditions, & being told by numerous medical personnel to not take a neurological injury lightly.

Like I mentioned, in an earlier post, I'll ask the AD how the player is doing, & stating my reason is due to my reading the new Concussion Management Regulations & my understanding of them, also that I am concerned for her safety. Hopefully, by asking him about the new Concussion Management guidelines, I can get a clarification of the regulation.

zm1283 Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641878)
I was just a spectator to the events, as the whole time I was behind the scorers' table as crowd control to make sure no unauthorized personnel went into the locker room area.

I have been rethinking things, & came to the conclusion that I feel that way I do because of having the different neurological conditions, & being told by numerous medical personnel to not take a neurological injury lightly.

Like I mentioned, in an earlier post, I'll ask the AD how the player is doing, & stating my reason is due to my reading the new Concussion Management Regulations & my understanding of them, also that I am concerned for her safety. Hopefully, by asking him about the new Concussion Management guidelines, I can get a clarification of the regulation.
Okay, go for it. We don't care what you do at this point.

johnnyrao Sat Dec 12, 2009 01:10am
I do have a general question about concussions, though. I don't have my rule book, so I am not sure of the exact wording, but doesn't it say that a player with a concussion may not return without a doctor's permission. Does this mean for that particular game or for any further games? If it is for future games, how do you know? Do any states require the officials to file a report with their assignor when it appears a player received a concussion so that the crew doing the next game is aware? Or is that something that becomes a game management issue that we don't want to deal with. Seems to me it would be very hard for us to enforce and it's something I never had a crew talk about in a pre-game.


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