Communication issue
 

I need advice from some different officials -

Background - I am a JV coach - and I am a little loud - doesn't mean rude - but loud. I yell plays, directions, encouragements and corrections to my players. And sometimes I am a little loud with officials - (and before you get judgemental in 12 years as a HS coach I have 1 technical - and been warned 3 times to sit down and zip it - okay maybe 4)

Anyway - We played in a game last night that became VERY physical. I asked my captains to talk to the lead official because play was pretty bad around the hoop. so they asked if the official could watch physical play under the basket.

The response - loud enough for the bench to hear - "there is nothing to watch for- IF there was I would call it"

as the game progressed on there is a girl with a Major concussion, one with an elbow so swollen that she can't bend it, one with torn tendons in her shoulder and about 5 others that where all iced up at the end of the game (not all on my team)

When the elbow girl was thrown to the floor by her jersey right in front of the lead official I of course complained. She said there was no foul and threatened to throw me out. (no T given - No warning - Not asked to sit down)

What would be proper procedure to approach the association about this ref and this incident? or if I have this official again how do I properly approach them about handling very rough game play without putting them in the position of being on the defensive?

Thanks for any input

If you have video of the game, send it to the state office. If it all happened as you say, this is a problem that needs to be addressed. As for how to approach the officials, it sounds to me like you handled it okay, but were inappropriately rebuffed.

Now I wasn't there, I didn't see how all this went down, I did not observe what interactions you may have had prior to this, <insert all the usual disclaimers here>. But if everything happened just as you describe, this is a problem. You were right to voice your concerns. And you'd be right to escalate this through proper channels.

I agree, taking what you're saying at face value, with BITS. Communication through your AD to the assigner would be appropriate, if your area uses a central assigner. If your AD is the assigner, then I would address it with him and see how far he wants to take it.

I'll offer my theory (the most charitable one) for this situation. There is a progression that officials go through, in general.

They start off timid, missing some calls and late on others. Sometimes they're so late they just let it go.

They then start to call anything and everything. Virtually all contact is a foul, without regard to advantage.

Then they learn about advantage/disadvantage as it applies to fouls, and have to call quite a few games and learn how to apply it properly. This normally involves letting too much contact go and learning from it. It seems like this is where your officials were last night; hopefully. I would also hope that they are evaluating themselves rather than pi$$ing and moaning about that whiny coach.

It sounds like you did what you could to talk to them, and it sounds like they were not willing to talk. It happens for various reasons. Most likely, he knew he missed it and reacted poorly to being called out.

One question I always react more positively to, is a quiet (while I'm standing near) "Why wasn't that a foul?" It's a question I can answer, and it's quiet and polite.

I'm Shutting Up, But I'm Not Sitting Down ...
 

Assuming you're in a coaching box state (not a "seat belt" state) there is no such rule that allows an official to "warn" you to sit down. The only time a head coach has to sit down is after he receives a technical foul.

The OP is one of the reasons that not many coaches will complain about you calling too much, especially if they know the game is physical. Blow the whistle, be consistent, and you won't have many problems.

Agree, take your video and get r done. Generally speakin most of us are a proud hard working bunch who love the game as much or more than most coaches and spectators. If they are truely this horrible get them out. Safety of the players should always come first and then equal administration of the true spirts of the rules. Keep doin what ur doin.

This isn't going to be a popular response, but sadly it contains a great deal of truth.

Complaining won't change anything. The state/local association likely won't do anything, unless a lawsuit gets filed. With what schools are currently paying HS officials, you are fortunate to get what you have, especially on the girls side.

There just aren't people lining up to officiating a girls JV game.

It is a JV game, get some perspective. You can send everything to the state or the association; it does not mean you will get much better officials. As usually the officials are working that level are probably not good enough to work varsity or they would likely not be there. Honestly hope that you are not referencing an injury as a sign of anything. Basketball is a physical sport by nature. Things happen and a foul is not going to change those sore body parts. Just be happy you did not get T'd and take it as a learning experience. Just because you complain (which is technically illegal) does not mean everyone wants to hear you. And I do disagree with some here, if I warn you there is a reason. Because the next thing is I will just "stick" you and not say anything. Understand dealing with coaches and officials is an art. Not everyone has the capacity to say the right things and certainly not every official wants to hear a coach complain all night either.

Peace

This is really irrelevant. There are plenty of crappy refs who love the game. With that said, there are two sides to every story. I would take the OP with a grain of salt without knowing what really happened in the game.

You said the same thing in your post that js1969 said in his post. If his is irrelevant, so is yours.

(Perhaps that makes my post irrelevant).

I took his statement to imply that most of us love the game, therefore we are good refs. So I was attempting to say just the opposite - just because you love the game doesn't make you a good ref. Perhaps my statement is irrelevant as well. All that matters are the refs in this particular game and none of us have anything to go on other than a coach's, probably biased, perspective.

[QUOTE=Nevadaref;641190]This isn't going to be a popular response, but sadly it contains a great deal of truth.

Complaining won't change anything. The state/local association likely won't do anything, unless a lawsuit gets filed. With what schools are currently paying HS officials, you are fortunate to get what you have, especially on the girls side. QUOTE]

Probably 99.9% true.

Not quite true around here. Two of the requirements to work playoffs are to have worked a minimum number of JV games and a minimum number of girls games. Working a girls JV game counts for both.

[QUOTE=j51969;641276]99.9%? If you're talking about the officials - Not where I work. If you're talking about the lawsuits - I have no idea.

I am trying to work my way up to a full V schedule, but I'm not there yet. Tough to climb the mountain in my Association and maybe others. I still get my share of F/JV games (along with V games) as do some of my peers. As recommended on this Forum and by my mentors - never turn down a game if you don't have to and work, work, work to gain experience.

Our Association does well reporting problems to the state too.

While the statement may have some truth and it may be a high percentage, I believe your 99.9% is unfair to hard working officials trying to get ahead and to Associations who work hard supporting their officials.

My $.02

Do you belong to Cardinal? When I lived in the area I heard some bad things about moving up in that association.

This is what I was commenting on. I think his assertion is accurate.

In Northern Ohio, the Assocaition plays no role in assigning games. Each conference has its own commissioner who is also the assignor. If this situation was as you said, around here it should be handled the following way. Ask your V coach to speak to the V officials about the incident(s). If they can coraborate your story that would be a good thing. Then write a letter to the assignor and enclose a tape of the game. Explain your side of the story. If the V officials saw it as you did, mention their names in the report so the assignor can talk to them.

My guess is, if everything is as you said, you will have seen the last of those officials.

Unless there's video evidence to show that a) the officials were doing a poor job, and b) the officials were as unprofessional in their contact with the coach as he states.

In my experience, associations have a vested interest in maintaining a professional image; and state governing bodies even more so.

I recognize that there's a second (and third) side to this story, that's why I added the caveat. The thing is, I've worked with officials like this.

Now, they tend to be of a category I forgot to mention. On their way out. I worked with a guy a few times who was way past his sell-by-date. Aside from being slow to position and having poor mechanics (often hard to tell what he was calling), he was quick to get into it with fans.

Fair enough. I have no reference point there.

I work for Bull Run. They have treated me very well, spent a lot of hours training me, and brought me along at the correct pace. No complaints from me.

I have no comment on my sister Association as all it would only be based on is here say.

Where I live often the assignors are different for each gender. So if you work for the girl's assignor, you may not work for the boy's assignor. And honestly, if you work a lot of girl's basketball it will eliminate you from a lot of boy's basketball (and vise versa). And for many officials when they choose, they do not choose or desire to work girl's basketball. So it does ring true if they have a choice, they are not working a JV girl's game. ;)

Peace

The official appears to be very defensive. He'll be a JV official for the rest of his life.

Best way to handle this? Show your AD the tape of the game and specifically describe the safety issues that occurred during the game, combined with the official being unprofessionally defensive about it. The AD will either takec are of it, or not.

Have that official again? Not worth your time to even try to communicate with him. Make your decisions accordingly as to your behvior and tactics.

Very true especially if your moving into the next level with woman's basketball. It goes without saying that these are two completely different forms of basketball. You could make the arguement that at it's best, and most pure form, the girls game it fantastic when played at a high level. And when it's not, you want to stab yourself in the eye with a pencil. Alot of people may choose to avoid the female game all together. Patty Broderick is maybe one of the best officials in the world and attending one of her camps may shed new light on there style of play, and your interest in it. JMO

Regional differences, and you can challenge whether we have a "choice" around here due to the CHSAA rules; but the fact is they do have a choice.

1. Don't work playoffs.
2. Work X number of JV boys games plus Y number of girls varsity games.
3. Combine those into JVG games and be able to work more VB games.

Again, the point I am making is not everyone is "made" to work both genders. In my state we have 4 different levels we can say we are able to work. Two of them are girl's post seasons; the other 2 are boy's post season tournaments. All of the state finals are not run on the same weekend nor do they run at the same places. It is impossible to work very deep in all of those tournaments at once and even if you could by avoiding a specific night, they have not allowed anyone to work both very often. And many times the choice is going to be made for you if you try to work both. As I said, if you work in a girl's conference, there is no guarantee you are going to work in the boy's side of that same conference. And in many cases officials have not been allowed to work both because they are labeled on one side or the other as I said before. And in my state, it is harder to get a boy's varsity game than it is to work a girl's varsity game. Many officials default to the girl's side because they cannot get games in boy's basketball. And frankly I think it takes a different skill level to work boy's games when the girl's side has different expectations (from coaches as well) on how the game is called and what is not called. And the fact that a coach is even talking about how bruised his girl's got and how physical the game was tells a huge story in that respect. I rarely hear a boy's coach talk about his player had a bruise on their elbow because of fouls that were not called. Another reason why I just leave that side alone as much as possible.

Peace

This is a really good point and one of the main reasons I took the OP with a grain of salt. From the sound of the OP, there were 3 or 4 ambulances called to the game site. In reality, girls hit the floor 10 times more often than boys and they cry and they look like they are going to die of pain, and within 5 minutes of being helped off the floor, they are back in the game. I suspect the OP was embellishing the extent of the injuries. Seriously - a major concussion?

Funny you say this. Early in my career I worked a girl's varsity game. The girls basically did something she had no business doing like trying to dribble between two defenders that were doing nothing but standing in front of her. The girl fell and acted like she hurt her knee. You would have thought with the screaming and yelling she had torn a ligament or broken a leg. The girl's parent even started yelling at us like we had committed a capital crime. We delayed the game for a few minutes as the girl was actually helped off the court. The very next stoppage of play, she was at the scorer's table coming in the game. I knew right thing it was time to hang up girl's basketball. Now it took some years to get some clout to do so, but I eventually got it out of my schedule. And in many cases when I am asked to work girls, the assignor apologizes to me or even makes it clear if I get a boy's game, I can give it back. The last couple years I worked a Xmas Tournament on an off night and I am glad it was only one. And the type of complaints that the coach displayed here is the main reason for that position.

I'm guessing the OP is a relatively new girls coach. A few years of doing this and you'll be like the coach I had the other night when three times in one quarter we had to stop play for an injury (and tears) on the court. When we'd go to beckon him out, he'd just roll his eyes and say "Good gravy..." :D

I've waited a whole day to say this but since I am getting ready to leave for tonights game and won't have to read what the people who disagree with me say until later, I will say it now.

A coach blaming the officials for both teams being so rough that they injure each other is like a parent blaming the teachers at school for their children's misbehavior.

Officials don't try to let a game get out of hand. A game gets out of hand because the play is such that an official may not have the tools (ability) to keep it under control. The players and the coaches are the ones dictating how rough the players play not the officials. They could play within the rules any time they choose. I have called and seen plenty of games where foul calls were no deterrent at all to rough play. And I'm not sure they should be. That is a choice the players and coaches make.

I'm not saying that the officials don't bear a burden of responsibility for the safety of the participants. They do. I am only saying a coach blaming officials for rough play from both teams is somewhat misdirected.

Amen and amen. What tools do we have in our repertoire to prevent injuries? Calling fouls? Pshaw.

I agree also. My main point was with the officials' lack of professionalism, as expressed by the OP.

What we don't know is whether the official was nearing his ABS point with the coach, and his curt answer was just a old school way of preventing the T.

I'm with you. There is never an excuse for that.

Hoepfully it wasn't a lack of professionalism but a management tool as you state.

Yeah, but even so, I'm not fond of that as a management tool. Telling a coach to sit down is unprofessional, IMO, unless he's earned his T. If you don't take care of bidness with the T, you can't tell him to sit on it.

Don't you listen to the fans imploring "If you don't start blowing the whistle someone's gonna get hurt"?
This has led to my contorted logic that the whistle has magic curative powers over and above simply calling fouls.
Try it, you'll like it!!!!!

You should get together with your AD and contact the assignors. Be prepared to present them with videotapes and any notes you might have made. At the least, they'll talk to the officials involved to get their points-of-view. They may decide they shouldn't be assigned to any more of your games. If they do nothing, your state should have a mechanism for you to follow regarding these issues.