Preferences for scoreboard/timer & scorebook operations
 

What is the preference of everyone when it comes to who's doing scoreboard/timer & official scorebook at games?

Do you prefer someone who is keeping up with the rules/regulations? Or someone that's going off of regulations that's 5-10 years old?

Should it be mandatory that anyone doing scoreboard/timing and scorebook have to go through the training & testing that the floor officials go through?

I am asking this because I have been doing scoreboard/timing for my alma mater for the past 4 years, & every year I go to my state association's website & go through the online rules clinic that's posted for the public to view. For my alma mater, I do scoreboard/timing for JV & C-Squad games, I have also done Girls' Varsity Shot Clock for a couple of games.

I am curious as to what everyone's thoughts are on this, concerning the fact that there is a difference in first-year scoreboard/timer & scorebook, & those that have been doing it for years on end.

How easy is it, as a floor official, to keep up on the new POE & rules/regulations when they change from one year to another?

Not something I even worry about because I have no control over it. The home team picks who does it. If they look like a deer in the headlights, I might try to help them a little with some advice. other than that, the only think I do is ask them if they know when to blow the warning horn. If they give me a strong and correct answer, we're good to go.

It is always better to work with an experienced and competent table crew.

That said, this is not the choice of the officials, and we have to take whomever the school provides and do the best that we can.

I have seen several games get screwed up in the past couple of seasons because of the table crew not handling their duties properly.

As an example, last year I was doing shot clock for Girls' Varsity, whenever a foul was being called the calling official was looking at me & reporting the information at me, instead of to the Scoreboard/Timer & Scorebook.

I had worked with that official several times before when I was JV & C-Squad Scoreboard/Timer, and the official was so used to my method of operations. The person that does the Varsity Scoreboard/Timer has been doing it for at least 10 years, yet I've only done scoreboard/timer for 4-5 years. You'd think the more senior person would have more respect/appreciation from the officials, yet whenever I am at the table I get better responses than others.

With this person that's got the more experience, I've seen several screw ups, yet no one seems to want to change things.

What?!? Rules reference, please! :rolleyes:

You're really stirring the pot these days, Nevada. :D

I'll take an experienced, conscientious, non-distracted crew anytime.

I worked as the "volunteer" clock operator for a HS (non-V game) last yr. Everything was fine until the refs came to the table at half-time to verify all was well. Visitor's book and scoreboard reflected one score (V leading by two), Home book reflected another (tie score). (NOTE - I was the only person at the table above the age of 18. Well above 18. As has been pointed out, this can be a problem).

Well, we rectified the situation as by rule as the Books could not agree where the issue was.

The V Coach/team was none too happy when they came back out onto the floor for the second half.....

As far as keeping up on rules and such, I think the practical ideal is somewhere in between. Obviously grabbing a random kid from the stands to run the book/clock is problematic (as has been proven repeatedly at some schools I work). But does the table crew really need to know the ideal size for a HS basketball court, the maximum allowable side inset width for a legal jersey, or whether a ball handler can legally pivot if he/she jumps off one foot and lands on two? Not really. But it is very helpful to have a table crew that knows all the rules about substitution, who understand that running score is more important that individual point totals, who understands how direct and indirect technicals work and are recorded, even what to do when a player scores a the other team's basket. The scorekeeper who knows all that is the scorekeeper I want to work with.

I prefer to work with scorers and timers who are female and attractive. :)

However, I mostly prefer to work with scorers and timers who are there. It is frustrating to be at the table before the game, doing your admin chores, and the timer or scorer is off eating a hotdog and chatting with friends.

In my area, these are paid positions (per game) for all Varsity contests. The same people usually do them for every home game. Consequently, they are usually experienced. That doesn't mean they know everything but it does mean that a quick chat and intro before the game typically makes for a smooth game.

Or did you really mean: I prefer to score with timers who are female and attractive. :D

you sound a little jaded... just because the JV coach goes undefeated for 3 straight years doen't mean he/she gets the varsity job. That is just basketball politics... you refs never have to deal with politics I am sure.

(sorry for the off topic remarks):o

I don't think any of that has anything to do with it. Many times, if I'm familiar with a face at the table, I'm going to be drawn more toward that face. For example, the timer this past Friday night has been at the table for years. I did not know either scorer. So naturally, my gaze would catch the timer most times. But then I would pick up the scorer.

That was a joke, right?

I agree. Who I look at when reporting doesn't have anything to do with my opinion of who is sitting at the table. It does have a lot to do with where they put that big "X" on the floor. Unfortunately that "X" is usually at the center of the table and the timer is sitting behind it instead of the scorer.

ADs, assignors, vets, boards, coaches... never none. :rolleyes: doomed I say, doomed.

So timely. Just last week I had a game where the home/official bookkeeper was seemingly inexperienced. She was tentative and not very communicative. I tried to engage/entertain all at the table as part of my pregame (which I strongly encourage).

As the game progressed, I found myself looking to the visitor bookkeeper, who regularly made eye contact and could predict what I was going to ask (correct arrow at quarter, impending bonus, how many time outs).

As the game winded down, my partner reported what was the 5th foul for a girl and learned that from the visitor bookkeeper. He knew and held up a hand as my partner was reporting the foul since he expected who it would be called on. I connected with my partner shortly after that we need to confirm with the official bookkeeper (not the more engaging person) for her records.

Sometimes it is more difficult to work with the more experienced scorer who thinks he/she knows what going on too much. The worst thing I see is when I go to report a foul and the scorer is not even looking at me, but already writing in the book.

Agreed. I'm a patient man and will wait for the eye contact. I get a little sick kind of thrill when the "know everything" scorekeeper is being told by everyone at the table "the refs waiting for you. " :eek:

If I do it early it usually doesn't happen too much after that. :rolleyes:

In my example, I was neither the scoreboard/timer or scorebook, I was just shot clock operator.

Concerning the reporting issue, when I hear the whistle & see the stop clock sign with reporting official coming towards table, I am always looking at the official for the information. More often than not now,

Other than doing shot clock for Girls' Varsity, I hadn't had any experience doing Varsity Scoreboard/Timing until I did WIAA 4A Regionals last year. From that experience, I can see how a person doing Varsity games can become distracted with everything going on around them. I used that experience of assisting at the 4A Regionals as a way to grade myself on what I should or sholdn't be doing differently. My first game there, I had a real test as we had a non-functioning scoreboard & had to use stopwatches for timing devices & use the PA Announcer to announce the score, fouls, shot clock & time expiration. Working on that sitch, made me see things differently & made me realize that doing any position at the table can be a test of abilities.

My thinking behind starting this thread was to get some input on what everyone's thoughts were concerning the table & experience.

I think you asked a loaded question:
The answer to this question is obvious, but it also presents a false dichotomy. Those aren't the only options.

No, unless you're going to pay them the same. You'll never get volunteers, however, with that requirement. And while I think a good table is a wonderful thing to have, I'd rather the schools pay for a third official than pay my rate for the table personnel.

try this analogy
 

Evaluating the table personnel at the start of the game is like checking your tires when you leave on a trip. If you have new ones, great. If one or more is obviously less than perfect, you just have to hope you make it ok.

Snaqwells, in other wording, I am asking would you rather have table personnel that know what they're doing, compared to someone that's having to learn while doing with it being their 1st time. I can get what you're saying about the pay. If I remember right, the person at my alma mater that does the Varsity games is getting paid $10 a game.

I asked about a person being current regulations, compared to someone who's going off of regulations that are 5-10 years old, because basically that's the circumstance that's going on with the person doing the scoreboard/timing for Varsity at my alma mater. She does a good job with continual communication between herself & the scorebooks, but she is buzzing at the wrong time for time-outs, & she doesn't hit the 1-minute warning buzzer for intermissions. Also she seems to know how to do shoit clock although I've never seen her do shot clock.

When I'm doing scoreboard/timer & shot clock, I have print outs with me that show the rules/regulations for shot clock, timer, & scorebook. This way if any questions are asked about the procedure I have proof. So yes I have the experience, but I also keep with me the written proof in case I happen to have questions

Considering I normally only do JV & C-Squad games, most of the time the person doing scorebook is a student with their friends/buddies sitting there next to them distracting them. (The home team has almost gotten technicals cause of it). I feel like others that the person doing scorebook should be an adult, not a student.

We are very fortunate in our area. The officials association is also responsible for assigning the scorer and timers. They have to go through training just as officials do. We have our veteran scorers and timers train and then they go and practice at scrimmages. When they finally do high school games if they are new they are assigned with a veteran. They are paid very well and for the most part do a great job. Our regional and state games are also chosen from these scorers and timers with others from different areas.

Does anyone have a list of state associations, or officials associations, that do this?

What would be the proper procedure to suggest this to the Sate &/or Officials Associations here?

I am asking as this setup has everyone on the same page & rules/regulations. I would like to have the opportunity to do State Championship games as well, so I can broaden my experience.

Tadams, I've had a few of the floor officials actually mention it to me, that they prefer working with me cause of how I handle things at the table, & my professionalism. The person that does handle the Varsity Scoreboard/Timer has either a written or verbal agreement with the School Board or the School Board decided that since she likes kissing up that she should remain in the position.

I had a preseason meeting with the School AD & mentioned to him that some of the rules/regulations she was going off of were slightly outdated. How I understand things he is going to print out some of the new rules/regulations & go over those with her.

One of the games where I did Girls' Varsity Shot Clock, she tried telling me when to do a clock reset which should not of happened cause of the missed shot (didn't hit the rim), the play should of been a shot clock violation, yet it never got called cause of the reset. At the next time-out I showed her the printed Shot Clock regulations & the R came over as well and verified my information. (The time-out happened right after the play).

I don't mind volunteering doing scoreboard/timer & shot clock, as I see it as doing a service to my alma mater. Depending on what happens with the addition of Boys' 35-second shot clock here in Washington, I might end up doing more Varsity Games as Shot Clock Operator.

Not something I worry about or control. I have had people that claim they are very experienced and those are the people that cause us the most problems.

Peace

I may have experience, but I'm also wanting to learn more. Like I mentioned in earlier postings, I have copies with me of the Instructions to Scorers & Timers with me, in case I do get jammed up somehow. I also am asking the floor officials questions if I do not understand something, or misinterpret.

Partner, that makes absolutely, positively no difference whatsoever. Who we look at doesn't mean a thing. Can you not get that? :confused:

You're issue seems to be that you want to work varsity games but there's already someone in that position. You seem to want to build yourself up to us, while tearing the other person down. Unfortunately, we can't help you get the varsity job. Even if we could, that's not the correct way to go about it. And it's not going to help you with the people who do make the decision either.

Do your job, don't worry about others, DON'T TEAR THEM DOWN TO OTHERS and if you're deserving, the position will eventually be yours.

Took the words right out of my mouth. I like his passion for the job but he's barking up the wrong tree here.

The gal that is doing the Varsity Games right now for my alma mater, has been doing it for the past 5-10 years at a minimum. She's doing a good job, except for not keeping up on the new Time-Out/Intermission rules/regulations on when to sound the buzzer. I've learned some things from her on how the table runs smoothly during games. I am doing what I can to slowly build up to doing Varsity contests as scoreboard/timer.

One of the reasonings behind doing the WIAA 4A Regionals last year, was that I had as a reference the AD who has seen/watched me work scoreboard/timer during the JV & C-Squad games. Also my knowing the facilities that were being used helped a bit, as well as my never give up/can do attitude.

During some of the JV & C-Squad games, I've had to wear multiple hats at once, Scoreboard/timer & crowd control at the same time.

Great, congratulations. How else can we help you in this OFFICIATING forum?

Your performance / knowledge is only part of the equation. The other is your attitude and personality. Based on your posts here (and not just in this thread), I'd say you have a long way to go in this area.

That sounds great, but not my ultimate concern. All I want someone that is going to work with us and not try to interfere with you job. What you know might not be an issue. If you have a question, that is fine, but you must listen to us ultimately. Your job is to record, not make decisions. ;)

I am going to have to agree with Bob on this one. ;)

Peace

One preference that I do have is that the scorekeeper and/or timer not think they know the rules better than we do.

Amen. My problems with scorers have been one of two things.
1. Distracted teenagers who have better things to do.
2. Over-zealous young adults who think they know better than the officials.

Everything else, I can work with.