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MelbRef Sun Dec 06, 2009 08:28pm

3-man officiating
 
I've been working 2-man officiating for a couple years, and I've been assigned my first 3-man game next week.

Any general advice that may be helpful?

One area of particular interest is the rotation of the Lead to move ball side (which I believe forces the C and U to adjust as well). I wouldn't think that the Lead would rotate ball side every time the ball moves around the perimeter.

Thanks!

Ignats75 Sun Dec 06, 2009 09:11pm

I am yoyoing between junior varsity (2 person) and varsity (three person) now. Two biggest challenges.

1) Don't catch yourself as lead peaking to the corner for the three point shot..

2) As lead, rotating to ballside happens alot more often in three person mechanics.

Oh yeah, as C on the press; don't find yourself counting the 10 second count :D

26 Year Gap Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:29pm

There is a manual that outlines how the 3 crew mechanics work. But it is very likely that your partners have experience and will help you along.

PIAA REF Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:44am

Pregame
 
Make sure you have a real good pregame with your partners. People have different philosophys when and when not to flex as lead. Try to watch your area only. It will be hard at first but remember what line is yours on OOB situations. Also here is some tid for tat that may help you but like was said read your manual.

1: Stay in your Area
2: Only one official should have a 5 sec count (If a 5 sec. count begins in your primary you stay with the count until the count is broken. At this time the new primary official will pick up the count.
3: If you have a drive from your primary, you have it all the way to the hoop.
4: Only one official should have 3 pt. prelim, and lead should rarely have it. (only in transition when T might have missed it) Trail and Center will mirror on successful 3
5. When in transition the Center will hold up play for subs
6: When calling a foul, most times you will stay table side.
7: If you call a foul that is a non-shooting foul that is called in the front-court but the ball will now be going the other way. You call the foul then treat it as a violation (this negates the long switch)
8: If a flex is missed, or screwed up just come up the middle and fill in. if you are lead becoming trail.
9: Most officials will flex when the ball is rotated below foul line extended. Some want to wait until it has settled for a sec. Pregame it.
10: Don't flex when the shot is being taken. This includes not flexing when someone is on a drive.
11: Once you begin to flex, continue the whole way across. Don't Prairie Dog it by going in and out. If you think you should flex do it and go straight across.
12: If you have a double whistle hold your call and let primary official take the call to the table
13: Last second shot is either Trail or Center depending on who is opposite table:
14: PREGAME, PREGAME, PREGAME if the other officials are ones who sometimes don't ask them too.
15: Have Fun. You won't be perfect, do your best. Worry about your calls first and the 3-man stuff will come.

GOOD LUCK! We have all been there, you never get another first time so enjoy it.

Indianaref Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:53am

Go to as many 3 person games as you can till your game.

Back In The Saddle Mon Dec 07, 2009 01:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelbRef (Post 640131)
One area of particular interest is the rotation of the Lead to move ball side (which I believe forces the C and U to adjust as well). I wouldn't think that the Lead would rotate ball side every time the ball moves around the perimeter.

One of the most fundamental tenets of three-person is to "double up ball-side". That's where the majority of the action is, so that's where you want two sets of eyes. What you don't want is to leave the C hanging with the ball and 6-8 bodies to officiate.

However, your question is very practical. There is a balance that must be struck between the L going where the play is likely to be and the L needlessly yo-yoing all game long. In general the first few plays of the game will tell you a lot about what the offense is trying to do. So pay attention and adjust based on what they're actually doing.

Also, there are some common cues that can help us to know when to rotate and when to hold. Is the ball simply swinging "up top" or does it drop below the FTL extended? Where are the post players? Are there cutters going ball side? Where are the majority of the players? Has the play settled?

With time you'll develop a good feel for when to rotate, until then...when in doubt, rotate. You can always rotate right back if you need to. And your partners will let you know if you're rotating too much.

Scratch85 Mon Dec 07, 2009 02:05pm

In a 3-whistle game, remember the lead only has one line to call (the endline). The trail will have your sideline. That along with peeking at the 3-point signal in the corner as Ignats mentions are the 2-whistle mechanics that incorrectly work their way into my 3-whistle games.

I also think BITS advice for rotating is spot on and worth remembering.

MelbRef Tue Dec 22, 2009 08:47pm

OK, had my first 3-man game. Here is my take on it...

For someone that has only done 2-man, there were two challenges with 3-man officiating:

1) you must always be aware of the location of your partners. In 2-man I am very focused on my primary, but in 3-man you have to regularly spot check your partners location, thereby breaking your PCA focus.

2) I found it tricky to remember my PCA as you shift from C to T. For example, you can be the C, watching your PCA, then the L will rotate and your PCA automatically shifts to L. I became uncertain about the boundaries of my coverage area when these sudden shifts happened.

These two things kinda threw me out of sync, and affected my overall officiating and court awareness (e.g., substitutes, time-outs, rotation on fouls)

I got better in the 2nd half, but just thought I would share the challenges for those that haven't yet worked 3-man.

Freddy Tue Dec 22, 2009 09:11pm

In Sync Soon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MelbRef (Post 644965)
These two things kinda threw me out of sync, and affected my overall officiating and court awareness (e.g., substitutes, time-outs, rotation on fouls).

The more games you observe and the more games you do, this will diminish until PCA and court awareness become comfortable. Keep at it. You'll be in sync before you know it.

representing Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIAA REF (Post 640290)
Make sure you have a real good pregame with your partners. People have different philosophys when and when not to flex as lead. Try to watch your area only. It will be hard at first but remember what line is yours on OOB situations. Also here is some tid for tat that may help you but like was said read your manual.

1: Stay in your Area
2: Only one official should have a 5 sec count (If a 5 sec. count begins in your primary you stay with the count until the count is broken. At this time the new primary official will pick up the count.
3: If you have a drive from your primary, you have it all the way to the hoop.
4: Only one official should have 3 pt. prelim, and lead should rarely have it. (only in transition when T might have missed it) Trail and Center will mirror on successful 3
5. When in transition the Center will hold up play for subs
6: When calling a foul, most times you will stay table side.
7: If you call a foul that is a non-shooting foul that is called in the front-court but the ball will now be going the other way. You call the foul then treat it as a violation (this negates the long switch)
8: If a flex is missed, or screwed up just come up the middle and fill in. if you are lead becoming trail.
9: Most officials will flex when the ball is rotated below foul line extended. Some want to wait until it has settled for a sec. Pregame it.
10: Don't flex when the shot is being taken. This includes not flexing when someone is on a drive.
11: Once you begin to flex, continue the whole way across. Don't Prairie Dog it by going in and out. If you think you should flex do it and go straight across.
12: If you have a double whistle hold your call and let primary official take the call to the table
13: Last second shot is either Trail or Center depending on who is opposite table:
14: PREGAME, PREGAME, PREGAME if the other officials are ones who sometimes don't ask them too.
15: Have Fun. You won't be perfect, do your best. Worry about your calls first and the 3-man stuff will come.

GOOD LUCK! We have all been there, you never get another first time so enjoy it.

I'd like to add one that is always true. If you're the trail and going to be a lead in any situation (dead ball, made basket, turnover, etc) you sprint to get your butt down to the baseline of the opposite basket from where the ball was just at. Don't even look back, the now-trail will cover that side line and both the C and T can cover fouls. It's important to be under the basket asap. I'm pretty sure this goes for anyone, but I haven't officiated out of my area yet and this is how we do it around here.

bob jenkins Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 644994)
Don't even look back, the now-trail will cover that side line and both the C and T can cover fouls.

Not true. That is, it might be what is done in your area, but it's not taught at any of the camps I've been to.

bob jenkins Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelbRef (Post 644965)
OK, had my first 3-man game. Here is my take on it...

For someone that has only done 2-man, there were two challenges with 3-man officiating:

1) you must always be aware of the location of your partners. In 2-man I am very focused on my primary, but in 3-man you have to regularly spot check your partners location, thereby breaking your PCA focus.

You can use your peripheral vision to know where they are. Plus, if you trust them, you'll know when they move without seeing them.

Quote:

2) I found it tricky to remember my PCA as you shift from C to T. For example, you can be the C, watching your PCA, then the L will rotate and your PCA automatically shifts to L. I became uncertain about the boundaries of my coverage area when these sudden shifts happened.
You still stay on the play / ball even when the leafd rotates -- don't give up on the play. Only after the play moves do you assume the T's responsibilities.

Adam Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 644994)
I'd like to add one that is always true. If you're the trail and going to be a lead in any situation (dead ball, made basket, turnover, etc) you sprint to get your butt down to the baseline of the opposite basket from where the ball was just at. Don't even look back, the now-trail will cover that side line and both the C and T can cover fouls. It's important to be under the basket asap. I'm pretty sure this goes for anyone, but I haven't officiated out of my area yet and this is how we do it around here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 644996)
Not true. That is, it might be what is done in your area, but it's not taught at any of the camps I've been to.

Bob's right. You immediately have players in your primary that you need to officiate. If you run down without watching them, one day you'll find yourself wondering who started the fight.

bigdog5142 Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignats75 (Post 640149)
I am yoyoing between junior varsity (2 person) and varsity (three person) now. Two biggest challenges.

1) Don't catch yourself as lead peaking to the corner for the three point shot..

2) As lead, rotating to ballside happens alot more often in three person mechanics.

Oh yeah, as C on the press; don't find yourself counting the 10 second count :D

I'm right there with ya! I go between the two all the time. I catch myself doing two-man mechanics in three-man and three-man mechanics in two-man. I usually catch it early...and then smile about it. :)

26 Year Gap Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdog5142 (Post 645003)
I'm right there with ya! I go between the two all the time. I catch myself doing two-man mechanics in three-man and three-man mechanics in two-man. I usually catch it early...and then smile about it. :)

As long as you don't think you are U2 at the beginning of the game....

representing Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 644999)
Bob's right. You immediately have players in your primary that you need to officiate. If you run down without watching them, one day you'll find yourself wondering who started the fight.

You got 4 other eyes watching the players.

CMHCoachNRef Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 644994)
I'd like to add one that is always true. If you're the trail and going to be a lead in any situation (dead ball, made basket, turnover, etc) you sprint to get your butt down to the baseline of the opposite basket from where the ball was just at. Don't even look back, the now-trail will cover that side line and both the C and T can cover fouls. It's important to be under the basket asap. I'm pretty sure this goes for anyone, but I haven't officiated out of my area yet and this is how we do it around here.

At one point in time, this was a taught mechanic in Central Ohio. But, years ago, this mechanic was dropped. The problem here is that if you have NO IDEA where the ball is, you can miss a steal in the backcourt thereby leaving your partners without a third until you recover. You can also miss a long pass -- along YOUR LINE -- because you are just running. Always look over your shoulder as you sprint up the court.

Freddy Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:50pm

Doh!
 
Last year about this time I went to observe at a Christmas tournament. One play stands out vividly in my mind. The new L was sprinting downcourt, unaware of the play developing behind him and -- GONK -- he gets hit in the back of the head :eek: by an attempted fast-break pass.
Didn't look real good. :o

Adam Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 645010)
You got 4 other eyes watching the players.

And the whole point of 3 whistles is to have 6 eyes watching the players. If there's pressure in the BC, those four eyes are watching the pressure.

If there's a breakaway layup about to happen, you've got on-ball coverage. I've been dinged specifically for not turning around and looking.

Again, as Bob said, if that's how you're taught, then do it. Most of us, however, have been taught differently.

zm1283 Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 645029)
And the whole point of 3 whistles is to have 6 eyes watching the players. If there's pressure in the BC, those four eyes are watching the pressure.

If there's a breakaway layup about to happen, you've got on-ball coverage. I've been dinged specifically for not turning around and looking.

Again, as Bob said, if that's how you're taught, then do it. Most of us, however, have been taught differently.

Exactly. It is a BIG no-no here to turn your back on the court when you're the new Lead during transition, whether it's 2 or 3-man.

representing Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 645029)
And the whole point of 3 whistles is to have 6 eyes watching the players. If there's pressure in the BC, those four eyes are watching the pressure.

If there's a breakaway layup about to happen, you've got on-ball coverage. I've been dinged specifically for not turning around and looking.

Again, as Bob said, if that's how you're taught, then do it. Most of us, however, have been taught differently.

While you've been "dinged" for not turning around, I've been "dinged" for turning around and looking. I've been told this way, even though I don't agree with it just as you guys are apparently saying, but it is just how it is around here. I don't agree with it strongly, I think I should be looking back, but around here the idea is that turning around slows you down a little, and in games (especially boys) where the players are extremely fast, you need to be under the basket when something could be going down under there.

So I guess this isn't a definite procedure, but this is what I'm teaching rookie 3-man officials when they ask me to "tutor" them.

Rich Wed Dec 23, 2009 01:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 645010)
You got 4 other eyes watching the players.

And you are still expected to keep your head turned and watch as you run down court in the 6 states I've worked.

On an 84-foot court how hard is it to go from T to L, anyway? Why would you need to "put your head down and sprint" anywhere?

bob jenkins Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 645038)
but it is just how it is around here.

You may have said this before -- but where is "here?"

Smitty Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 645038)
So I guess this isn't a definite procedure, but this is what I'm teaching rookie 3-man officials when they ask me to "tutor" them.

Wow. I am shocked that you are tutoring anyone with your clear lack of rules knowledge displayed in this forum.

Rich Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 645089)
Wow. I am shocked that you are tutoring anyone with your clear lack of rules knowledge displayed in this forum.

Yeah, but....he "represents." :p

jdw3018 Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:35am

Interesting discussion regarding transitioning from T to L. I actually think the "turn and get down the court" advice is good - but do so while officiating your primary.

One of the things that's hard to do when moving from 2-man to 3-man is the realization that once rebounding action is over, as T to L there's nothing for you to officiate at the point of the rebound. It's also technically true in 2-man, but a rebound in your primary across the court from L is something I often want to watch for an extra second or two.

In 3-man, as soon as the 'defense' has secured the ball, I'm turning and going to beat all players to the other end. But, I do so while looking over my shoulder and making sure I know what's happening. I need to officiate players who are transitioning down the court, and I need to know where the action is developing in a quick transition in order to be best positioned.

I've never been told in camp or otherwise to turn and run and not look back. I have been told in camp that I was waiting to long to turn and run while still officiating.

Ignats75 Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 645008)
As long as you don't think you are U2 at the beginning of the game....

I have a better voice than Bono. :D

MelbRef Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:00am

It seems like another issue with turning and running down to new L is if the other team goes into a full court press.

I believe that the L should not be at baseline (endline) while a full court press is underway and the players primarily in the backcourt.

chartrusepengui Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelbRef (Post 645108)
It seems like another issue with turning and running down to new L is if the other team goes into a full court press.

I believe that the L should not be at baseline (endline) while a full court press is underway and the players primarily in the backcourt.

In my most recent clinic(s) I've been told to get my butt down there - the press is to be handled by T and C

mj Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui (Post 645109)
In my most recent clinic(s) I've been told to get my butt down there - the press is to be handled by T and C

Not if all ten players are in the backcourt. I think the L should be as deep as the deepest players. Let the players dictate where you go.

representing Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mj (Post 645126)
Not if all ten players are in the backcourt. I think the L should be as deep as the deepest players. Let the players dictate where you go.

you could easily get beaten down by a breakaway then, especially in a boys game where they can sprint faster than most referees around here. I don't think you should be with the deepest players, and maybe you shouldn't be at the end line. Maybe be at FT line extended where you would be able to get the the baseline in a breakaway?

Smitty Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 645136)
you could easily get beaten down by a breakaway then, especially in a boys game where they can sprint faster than most referees around here. I don't think you should be with the deepest players, and maybe you shouldn't be at the end line. Maybe be at FT line extended where you would be able to get the the baseline in a breakaway?

If you are working your position correctly, you will be able to anticipate when you need to move toward the endline and not get beat. You also have to be in good shape so you can hustle when you need to hustle. If you are out of shape and can't regularly beat the play to your position, you should get in better shape.

Back In The Saddle Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:52am

I don't get the mindset that officials should ignore players and plays in favor of getting to some position on the floor. The whole point of being in a particular position on the floor is to ... referee players and plays? :confused:

eyezen Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 644994)
I'd like to add one that is always true. If you're the trail and going to be a lead in any situation (dead ball, made basket, turnover, etc) you sprint to get your butt down to the baseline of the opposite basket from where the ball was just at. Don't even look back, the now-trail will cover that side line and both the C and T can cover fouls. It's important to be under the basket asap. I'm pretty sure this goes for anyone, but I haven't officiated out of my area yet and this is how we do it around here.

Oh dear lord...

jdw3018 Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mj (Post 645126)
Not if all ten players are in the backcourt. I think the L should be as deep as the deepest players. Let the players dictate where you go.

I tend to be deeper than the deepest player, but not necessarily all the way to the endline. I do that for two reasons:

1. Players these days are fast. If a high school varsity b-ball player wants to race me down the court, he's very likely to win. I wasn't fast when I played. I'm slower now. I can still move well enough to be in position, but not if I get at a disadvantage.

2. I want plays to come at me. If I'm even with the deepest player, and a play develops with that player, then I'm at best even with them, moving down the court while trying to officiate the play. I want to be able to get to position and then watch the play unfold. I can do that better if I start deeper than the deepest players.

Rich Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 645173)
I don't get the mindset that officials should ignore players and plays in favor of getting to some position on the floor. The whole point of being in a particular position on the floor is to ... referee players and plays? :confused:

Fear of getting beat down the floor leads to some really bad habits like bailing on rebounds and planting yourself on the baseline instead of helping upcourt.

I got beat twice last night, 2 person. Probably an average night. Last Tuesday I got beat once, 3-person. Big deal. I officiated from behind and by the time the ball was coming back on the court, I was on the baseline as the trail. Big deal.

Rich Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 645136)
you could easily get beaten down by a breakaway then, especially in a boys game where they can sprint faster than most referees around here. I don't think you should be with the deepest players, and maybe you shouldn't be at the end line. Maybe be at FT line extended where you would be able to get the the baseline in a breakaway?

Where do you end up as the trail on a jumpshot? What happens then if the defense rebounds and outlets?

You *will* get beat, both 2-person and 3-person. It's more important to step down on a shot or hold your position and officiate in the moment than to run away so you can get to some spot on the court.

Adam Wed Dec 23, 2009 03:21pm

Rich is right, you're going to get beat occasionally. It just happens.

Back In The Saddle Wed Dec 23, 2009 05:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 645210)
Fear of getting beat down the floor leads to some really bad habits...

Exactly. When I learned three-person many moons ago I was taught the L has responsibility for the "first wave" of players going down court, that s/he should come down the floor with them and watch how they set up. It makes no sense to me to abandon the players and plays nearest to you so you can bust your tail to a spot on the floor so far ahead of everybody else that you've got no players or plays near you to referee when you get there.

walter Wed Dec 23, 2009 06:01pm

If you are just turning and running to get to the baseline, what happens if the ball gets turned over and heads back in the opposite direction? You end up sprinting to the baseline while all of the players and your partners are at the other end playing and officiating the game. You have to turn and look back over your shoulder and ref the first wave. All four camps stressed this over the summer and it what we teach our folks "around here".


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