The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Air Horn! (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/55675-air-horn.html)

Clark Kent Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:51pm
Air Horn!
 
BV game and early in the first period we are shooting the second free throw and just before the visiting team releases the ft an air horn goes off. He misses the shot, and next dead ball we stop play and my partner goes over with someone from game management and demand it. He threatened their team with a T is they didn't get it out of the crowd....a few of the football players on the front row turned around and magically made it appear!

My only question is would any of you have upon the rebound of the FT by the home team have stopped play? or was waiting for the dead ball the appropriate thing to do?

BillyMac Sat Dec 05, 2009 01:02pm
Probably Not A Popular Call On The Forum ...
 
This is not by the rule book, I have no citations, and a lot of Forum members are going to give me a hard time regarding my answer, but here it is. If I deem that the air horn caused the shooter to miss, I'm calling it disconcertion, and I'm giving the visitors another free throw. Yes, I know that the rule states that no opponent, including bench personnel, may disconcert the free thrower, and I know that fans are not opponents, but this was an unsporting act, and I'm going to use common sense and use 2-3.

OK guys. I'm ready. Give me your best shot.

just another ref Sat Dec 05, 2009 02:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 639892)
This is not by the rule book, I have no citations, and a lot of Forum members are going to give me a hard time regarding my answer, but here it is. If I deem that the air horn caused the shooter to miss, I'm calling it disconcertion, and I'm giving the visitors another free throw. Yes, I know that the rule states that no opponent, including bench personnel, may disconcert the free thrower, and I know that fans are not opponents, but this was an unsporting act, and I'm going to use common sense and use 2-3.

OK guys. I'm ready. Give me your best shot.
I don't think you can go there. What's the difference between the horn and a loud, shrill, piercing scream, or whistle, or whatever?

tjones1 Sat Dec 05, 2009 02:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 639899)
I don't think you can go there. What's the difference between the horn and a loud, shrill piercing scream, <s>or whistle</s>, or whatever isn't artificial?
There, fixed it for ya! ;)

just another ref Sat Dec 05, 2009 02:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 639900)
There, fixed it for ya! ;)
Some people can whistle really loud without using anything artificial.

tjones1 Sat Dec 05, 2009 02:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 639904)
Some people can whistle really loud without using anything artificial.
LOL DUH!!!!!!!!!!! Narrow minded....for some reason I was only thinking of a good old Fox 40 or old metal pea whistle in the crowd.

Good point... my fault. :)

BktBallRef Sat Dec 05, 2009 03:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 639892)
This is not by the rule book, I have no citations, and a lot of Forum members are going to give me a hard time regarding my answer, but here it is. If I deem that the air horn caused the shooter to miss, I'm calling it disconcertion, and I'm giving the visitors another free throw. Yes, I know that the rule states that no opponent, including bench personnel, may disconcert the free thrower, and I know that fans are not opponents, but this was an unsporting act, and I'm going to use common sense and use 2-3.

OK guys. I'm ready. Give me your best shot.
I have no problem with killing the play and giving the shooter another FT. But it has nothing to do with disconcertion. As you stated, fans can't be called for disconcertion. Use 2-3, have the illegal item remove and give the kid his FT.

He'll miss it anyway. :)

AKOFL Sat Dec 05, 2009 03:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 639904)
Some people can whistle really loud without using anything artificial.
My point would be the original noise was a artificial noise maker. None of yours were artificial. that would be a difference for me to lean twords(?) giving the guy another shot

tjones1 Sat Dec 05, 2009 03:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 639919)
My point would be the original noise was a artificial noise maker. None of yours were artificial. that would be a difference for me to lean towards(?) giving the guy another shot
Got it.

AKOFL Sat Dec 05, 2009 03:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 639923)
Got it.
THanks. I never won any spelling bees:p

Nevadaref Sat Dec 05, 2009 04:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 639892)
This is not by the rule book, I have no citations, and a lot of Forum members are going to give me a hard time regarding my answer, but here it is. If I deem that the air horn caused the shooter to miss, I'm calling it disconcertion, and I'm giving the visitors another free throw. Yes, I know that the rule states that no opponent, including bench personnel, may disconcert the free thrower, and I know that fans are not opponents, but this was an unsporting act, and I'm going to use common sense and use 2-3.

OK guys. I'm ready. Give me your best shot.
As you have written, disconcertion is not the proper call. A team technical foul per 2-8-1 is supported by the book.


RULE 2, SECTION 8 OFFICIALS’ ADDITIONAL DUTIES
The officials shall:
ART. 1 . . . Penalize unsporting conduct by any player, coach, substitute, team
attendant or follower.
NOTE: The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior,
insofar as it can reasonably be expected to control the spectators. The officials may call
fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper
conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team
be unjustly penalized. When team supporters become unruly or interfere with the orderly
progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until the host management
resolves the situation and the game can proceed in an orderly manner. In the absence of
a designated school representative, the home coach shall serve as the host management.

just another ref Sat Dec 05, 2009 04:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 639919)
My point would be the original noise was a artificial noise maker. None of yours were artificial. that would be a difference for me to lean twords(?) giving the guy another shot
My point is that the artificial noisemaker is no more likely to disrupt the shot than a naturally produced noise at the proper time. I see the call as a T or nothing. I see no way to award another free throw.

AKOFL Sat Dec 05, 2009 04:22pm
If you can make the same sounds, save yourself the money and don't buy the ILLEGAL item and bring it to a game. There is no rule against makin noise, just artificialy. I think we are saying the same thing.:) We cannot give another shot per rule.

Mark Padgett Sat Dec 05, 2009 06:52pm
Once, I had a coach jokingly ask me to call disconcertion when an opposing player along the free throw line loudly passed gas just when his player was taking his shot. The shot missed. I jokingly told the coach I could call it only if the player used an artificial noisemaker, but that they couldn't pay me enough to check. :D

chseagle Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:58pm
What's the ruling concerning yelling things when in the process of shooting free throws?

Last night during the Girls' Varsity game, whenever the home team was shooting free throws, the visitors' JV Girls watching as spectators were yelling various things while the home player was in the process of shooting free throws. Could this be considered disconcertion?

I'm asking this as a two-sided question, what would a floor official do in that situation? What should game management/crowd control do in that situation?

Nevadaref Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641197)
What's the ruling concerning yelling things when in the process of shooting free throws?

Last night during the Girls' Varsity game, whenever the home team was shooting free throws, the visitors' JV Girls watching as spectators were yelling various things while the home player was in the process of shooting free throws. Could this be considered disconcertion?

I'm asking this as a two-sided question, what would a floor official do in that situation? What should game management/crowd control do in that situation?
The JV team members are NOT opponents during the Varsity game. They are spectators. They should not be sitting in the team bench area. If they are in the bleachers behind the bench, then they can yell all they want.

Neither game management nor the officials should do anything about this. It is part of basketball.

However, the players on the court, and the coaches and team members sitting on the benches are not permitted to distract the FT shooter. That is a violation and will be penalized with a substitute FT.

chseagle Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 641200)
The JV team members are NOT opponents during the Varsity game. They are spectators. They should not be sitting in the team bench area. If they are in the bleachers behind the bench, then they can yell all they want.

Neither game management nor the officials should do anything about this. It is part of basketball.

However, the players on the court, and the coaches and team members sitting on the benches are not permitted to distract the FT shooter. That is a violation and will be penalized with a substitute FT.
A couple of the JV Players were questionable, the few that were questionable were sitting in the location where team gear was being kept (water bottles & medical). All were sitting right behind the bench, & a couple of times it looked as if the cheerleaders or the JV Girls' Coach was trying to get them to cheer while the free throw was being attempted.

The WIAA has a program called "Just Play Fair!" that emphasizes sportsmanship & on the Sportsmanship/Crowd Management Evaluation Form, 1 of the points on the form is: Yelling or waving arms during opponent's free-throw attempt under Unacceptable Behavior.

I know from watching College & NBA Games, that fans are waving foam fingers, banging thundersticks, & other things to distract the player.

I didn't think however it was legal for anyone to yell anything specific during the free throw attempts. Only yell, clap hands, & stomp feet.

Nevadaref Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641203)
A couple of the JV Players were questionable, the few that were questionable were sitting in the location where team gear was being kept (water bottles & medical). All were sitting right behind the bench, & a couple of times it looked as if the cheerleaders or the JV Girls' Coach was trying to get them to cheer while the free throw was being attempted.

The WIAA has a program called "Just Play Fair!" that emphasizes sportsmanship & on the Sportsmanship/Crowd Management Evaluation Form, 1 of the points on the form is: Yelling or waving arms during opponent's free-throw attempt under Unacceptable Behavior.

I know from watching College & NBA Games, that fans are waving foam fingers, banging thundersticks, & other things to distract the player.

I didn't think however it was legal for anyone to yell anything specific during the free throw attempts. Only yell, clap hands, & stomp feet.
If the WIAA has specific regulations above and beyond the NFHS rules, then that would be followed in your state. However, the NFHS rules do not forbid any of the behavior which you have described.

Perhaps someone who currently officiates in the State of Washington will come along shortly, see this post, and clarify how this should be handled up there.

bob jenkins Thu Dec 10, 2009 09:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641197)
What's the ruling concerning yelling things when in the process of shooting free throws?

The scorekeeper, timer and shot-clock operator should refrain from yelling during FTs.

Ignats75 Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:02am
I was doing a BJV game a couple of years ago where one of the HCs was a notorious bad boy coach. Probably will retire with the career record for T's in his conference.

I was T on a free throw (before the mechanics change-so I was AWAY from the benches). It was the first half. Just as the shooter was in his shooting motion, the coach open palm slaps the floor and yells real loud, "BOX OUT".

I whacked him for unsporting behavior. I could've gone the disconcertion route, except the FT was made. But, this guy had already been warned that he needed to calm down and it was clear that he waited for the shooter to just about release the ball to do what he did.

V officials and my partner and I had a lively discussion about whether it was unsporting behavior. I won the vote 3-2.

chseagle Thu Dec 10, 2009 07:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 641259)
The scorekeeper, timer and shot-clock operator should refrain from yelling during FTs.
Bob, I was meaning spectators.

The other night the people in the stands (the JV Girls) yelling during the home free throws were just yelling out random things to try to get the shooter's concentration off (nothing yelled was related to basketball).

I know if the buzzer sounds during a free throw attempt, the shot is retried & the person that asked for the buzzer gets a stern warning.

I've never yelled during free throw attempts even as a spectator. I'll only stomp my feet or clap but have never yelled or whistled.

just another ref Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641505)
I know if the buzzer sounds during a free throw attempt, the shot is retried & the person that asked for the buzzer gets a stern warning.
The person that asked for the buzzer? What person might that be?

chseagle Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 641550)
The person that asked for the buzzer? What person might that be?
Normally it was one of the scorebooks, this happened when I was still wet behind the ears & was still learning the ins & outs of scoreboard/timer duties & responsibilities. (There were a couple of times, I pressed the horn by accident when was trying to place finger elsewhere on scoreboard controls :( )

They were asking for the horn to sound cause of not reporting the foul in the book like they should have in a timely matter.

Anymore I tell them to get the information from the other book, or they'll have to wait for the next dead ball. Sometimes I'll be nice & relay what was reported for them to record.

In other words, I learned quickly when the horn should & should not go off.

jeschmit Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 641259)
The scorekeeper, timer and shot-clock operator should refrain from yelling during FTs.
The announcer shouldn't yell during FTs either! I had to toss the announcer the other night because he had the audacity to yell "miss it!" over the loudspeaker as the V team was shooting a free throw. He was a substitute announcer and the AD was not happy with him!

chseagle Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 641552)
The announcer shouldn't yell during FTs either! I had to toss the announcer the other night because he had the audacity to yell "miss it!" over the loudspeaker as the V team was shooting a free throw. He was a substitute announcer and the AD was not happy with him!
Was the Home HC whacked for unsportsmanlike conduct?

jeschmit Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641554)
Was the Home HC whacked for unsportsmanlike conduct?
Definitely. It was my first T of the year. That's why the AD (and the coach) was not happy with him. I doubt he ever does the announcing at that school ever again...

Back In The Saddle Fri Dec 11, 2009 01:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641554)
Was the Home HC whacked for unsportsmanlike conduct?
Why on earth would you whack the head coach for the announcer's behavior?

chseagle Fri Dec 11, 2009 01:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 641564)
Why on earth would you whack the head coach for the announcer's behavior?
Why whack the head coach for a spectator making rude/lewd comments? Why tell a coach they'll have to forfeit the game due to a rude/lewd spectator?

I've seen both happen before. The coach technically isn't in control of the spectators yet they get reprimanded for it.

I guess this is kind of a rhetorical question.

There has to be some NFHS rule/regulation involved concerning the conduct of spectators, cheerleaders, band, dance/drill, and others not on the bench that if not followed that a coach can get penalized for it.

As I see/understand it, the announcer was showing unsportsmanlike behavior which could of resulted in the bench personnel, or the spectators in following his/her example.

Isn't the coach, overall, responsible for setting an example to not only his players, but also of the spectators of what good sportsmanship is?

Game Management has responsibility as well, don't get me wrong.

Back In The Saddle Fri Dec 11, 2009 01:57am
"The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior, insofar as it can reasonably be expected to control the spectators. The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized. When team supporters become unruly or interfere with the orderly progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until the host management resolves the situation and the game can proceed in an orderly manner. In the absence of a designated school representative, the home coach shall serve as the host management."

If the official is going to impose a technical foul due to the behavior of spectators, it will be a team technical and not assessed to the head coach. But it's almost always better not to go there. Let game management deal with the issue.

The official is within his rights to have an announcer removed, but there is no rule that allows the official to whack the head coach for the announcer's behavior.

chseagle Fri Dec 11, 2009 01:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 641564)
Why on earth would you whack the head coach for the announcer's behavior?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 641555)
Definitely. It was my first T of the year. That's why the AD (and the coach) was not happy with him. I doubt he ever does the announcing at that school ever again...
Did the announcer try making up excuses, such as he thought the microphone was off? How many games had he announced at previously?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 641552)
The announcer shouldn't yell during FTs either! I had to toss the announcer the other night because he had the audacity to yell "miss it!" over the loudspeaker as the V team was shooting a free throw. He was a substitute announcer and the AD was not happy with him!
Was the announcer doing it the whole game or did the announcer get busted after his 1st time?

If this was a continual happening throughout the game, why didn't game management walk over to him & tell him to stop or he'll be replaced/have to leave? Or the HC walk close to his vacinity & ask/tell him to stop it?

There seems to be some missing variables in this situation.

chseagle Fri Dec 11, 2009 02:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 641572)
"The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior, insofar as it can reasonably be expected to control the spectators. The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized. When team supporters become unruly or interfere with the orderly progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until the host management resolves the situation and the game can proceed in an orderly manner. In the absence of a designated school representative, the home coach shall serve as the host management."

If the official is going to impose a technical foul due to the behavior of spectators, it will be a team technical and not assessed to the head coach. But it's almost always better not to go there. Let game management deal with the issue.

So it would be considered an indirect T against the coach?

The official is within his rights to have an announcer removed, but there is no rule that allows the official to whack the head coach for the announcer's behavior.
I've seen it before where the R has stopped the game & asked game management remove a spectator, or the team would forfeit the game, due to the comments the spectator made. However, I hadn't heard/seen of an announcer being asked to leave in a middle of a game for any such behavior until now.

Back In The Saddle Fri Dec 11, 2009 02:14am
No. Not an indirect to the head coach. It would be a team technical.

chseagle Fri Dec 11, 2009 02:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 641580)
No. Not an indirect to the head coach. It would be a team technical.
Ok, somehow I am not getting the idea of how a team technical would be reported in the scorebook as had never seen it happen, or don't remember it happening

I'm just used to a player technical & the direct or indirect against the coach.

Well at least I'm learning stuff I didn't fully understand :)

chartrusepengui Fri Dec 11, 2009 08:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 641259)
The scorekeeper, timer and shot-clock operator should refrain from yelling during FTs.
you forgot officials!:D

jeschmit Fri Dec 11, 2009 08:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641573)
Did the announcer try making up excuses, such as he thought the microphone was off? How many games had he announced at previously?

Was the announcer doing it the whole game or did the announcer get busted after his 1st time?
He was supposedly a substitute announcer, and has only done a handful of games. This was the first time that he said anything into the microphone (see below)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641573)
If this was a continual happening throughout the game, why didn't game management walk over to him & tell him to stop or he'll be replaced/have to leave? Or the HC walk close to his vacinity & ask/tell him to stop it?

There seems to be some missing variables in this situation.
I did have to warn him at halftime for commenting about the officiating while the game was going on. It wasn't over the loudspeaker, but he was sitting at the table, and his comments were loud enough for me and both benches to hear it. He got a stern warning at halftime, and both of my partners knew of the warning during our halftime talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 641580)
No. Not an indirect to the head coach. It would be a team technical.
That's what we called it as.

bob jenkins Fri Dec 11, 2009 08:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 641566)
Why whack the head coach for a spectator making rude/lewd comments? Why tell a coach they'll have to forfeit the game due to a rude/lewd spectator?

I've seen both happen before. The coach technically isn't in control of the spectators yet they get reprimanded for it.
I don't doubt that youve seen both. But, what you've seen isn't correct.


Quote:
There has to be some NFHS rule/regulation involved concerning the conduct of spectators, cheerleaders, band, dance/drill, and others not on the bench that if not followed that a coach can get penalized for it.
Why does there have to be such a rule?

And, while I have you, the correct usage is "could have", not "could of".

(I don't think you used it in this post, but you frequently use it incorrectly.)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:48am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1