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-   -   Table Doesn't Tell Officials That the Player Fouled Out (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/55674-table-doesnt-tell-officials-player-fouled-out.html)

chseagle Mon Dec 07, 2009 05:48am
Becuause of the oversight of not reporting the 5th foul on the player, wouldn't it be considered an administrative technical against that team's scorebook?

Being that I've had training for both scorebook & scoreboard/timer, I've learned from doing the number of games I've done to be in constant communication between the books & the scoreboard to make sure the books match the board.

My reasoning for stating that the people need to be trained better is that I've seen too many instances happen where the person doing the scorebook is not reporting the game properly, compared to the scoreboard, & vice versa. :cool:

APG Mon Dec 07, 2009 06:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 640252)
Becuause of the oversight of not reporting the 5th foul on the player, wouldn't it be considered an administrative technical against that team's scorebook?

Being that I've had training for both scorebook & scoreboard/timer, I've learned from doing the number of games I've done to be in constant communication between the books & the scoreboard to make sure the books match the board.

My reasoning for stating that the people need to be trained better is that I've seen too many instances happen where the person doing the scorebook is not reporting the game properly, compared to the scoreboard, & vice versa. :cool:
There is no provision in any of the codes (NFHS, NCAA, NBA) to give a technical foul because the table did not inform the officials of a player's fifth foul.

And you're absolutely correct that in a perfect world, table crew would be trained and competent, but we have to do with what we can as officials, especially at the sub-varsity level. And as Nevadaref pointed out, even at the highest levels, where people are paid to do this, mistakes happen.

Nevadaref Mon Dec 07, 2009 06:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 640252)
Becuause of the oversight of not reporting the 5th foul on the player, wouldn't it be considered an administrative technical against that team's scorebook?
The official scorer is NOT considered to be associated with either team, even though the home team most likely provided the person. The scorer is a neutral member of the officiating crew, so there is no way to penalize either team for the conduct or incompetence of this person.

bob jenkins Mon Dec 07, 2009 09:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 640252)
Becuause of the oversight of not reporting the 5th foul on the player, wouldn't it be considered an administrative technical against that team's scorebook?
I thought you knew all the rules based on your practice of reviewing the POEs and taking the test every year?

It's great that you take this seriously. I wish more table crews did. But, your posts here come across as being more than just a little bit full of yourself.

Back In The Saddle Mon Dec 07, 2009 01:02pm
I was at a BYU game a few years ago, the first D1 game I had been to live in a very long time. The one observation that really stuck with me was, "Wow, there were sure a lot of time outs in that game." Sure enough, the next day the news reported BYU having gotten an unnoticed extra time out. I've met their scorekeeper, he's a good guy who has done the job for a lot of years and takes it very seriously. But stuff will happen sometimes, even to the "real pros".

chseagle Mon Dec 07, 2009 02:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 640270)
I thought you knew all the rules based on your practice of reviewing the POEs and taking the test every year?

It's great that you take this seriously. I wish more table crews did. But, your posts here come across as being more than just a little bit full of yourself.
Yes, Bob I review the POEs, & the rule changes every year. However the rules clinic I view are for the General Public View. The test is not graded, nor sent into the state association like I believe it is for the coaches. I had never actually seen of the sitch happening before & had not seen any rules stating what the consequence(s) should be.

Actually I wish the test was graded & sent into the state association.

johnnyrao Mon Dec 07, 2009 07:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 640240)
It happens. As evidenced here.
Names redacted in the following situation:

3-pointer from the top of the key made it a 71-66 game with 2:39 to play. But the [Xs] watched as the [Ys] struck for five straight points in a 30-second span, four by [Y1] and a free throw by [Y2], tying the game at 71-71 with 2:01 on the clock.

[X1] hit a pair of free throws as part of his 14-point fourth quarter, but [Y2] and [Y1] answered right back with back-to-back buckets, finally giving [Team Y] the lead at 75-73 with just over a minute left in the game.

Ironically, the [Ys] should never have owned the lead. [Y1] re-entered the game with 3:02 remaining, but he had committed his fifth foul earlier in the fourth. It wasn't until he picked up his sixth foul that the officials claimed responsibility for the mistake and did not punish [Team Y], so [Y1]'s six points during the 9-2 run remained a key factor.
What would lead the officials to think they made a mistake here? I am guessing that when he was assessed his fifth foul earlier in the quarter, the improper procedure was used and the coach and player were not notified? If Y1 fouled out and the coach/player were properly notified, then couldn't the officials assess that the Y Coach was unsportsmanlike by re-entering Y1, knowing he had already committed 5 fouls? I'm confused on this one and would ask for clarification.

bob jenkins Tue Dec 08, 2009 09:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrao (Post 640472)
If Y1 fouled out and the coach/player were properly notified, then couldn't the officials assess that the Y Coach was unsportsmanlike by re-entering Y1, knowing he had already committed 5 fouls?
Yes -- direct foul on Coach Y (assuming the proper procedure was followed).

Nevadaref Wed Dec 09, 2009 05:56am
The official went to the bench and said, "Coach, that's five," but apparently didn't have the attention of the coach. The official felt that he didn't do a proper job of communicating the information and chose to accept the responsibility for the error. The problem developed when the player with five fouls either never left the game despite a substitute entering at that time or returned undetected at a later time.

So it seems to be unclear whether the proper procedure was followed.

Adam Wed Dec 09, 2009 09:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 640908)
The official went to the bench and said, "Coach, that's five," but apparently didn't have the attention of the coach. The official felt that he didn't do a proper job of communicating the information and chose to accept the responsibility for the error. The problem developed when the player with five fouls either never left the game despite a substitute entering at that time or returned undetected at a later time.

So it seems to be unclear whether the proper procedure was followed.
Hmmm. How is this different than the 6 player tech discussion in the other thread?

Back In The Saddle Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 640938)
Hmmm. How is this different than the 6 player tech discussion in the other thread?
Exactly what I was thinking. ;)

Nevadaref Wed Dec 09, 2009 07:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 640938)
Hmmm. How is this different than the 6 player tech discussion in the other thread?
I didn't say that it was. I can state that the officials have a duty to notify the coach and the player on a DQ.

So, in your opinion, was that done in this case?

BTW I was not at this game.


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