Pass to self
 

I have used my dribble and make a pass to my team mate who goes back door and does not see the pass coming. I run over and pick up the pass. Is this a travel?

What if I see him going backdoor and try to hold up on the pass but the ball slips. Is this considered a fumble and therefore no traveling?

If the passed ball touches the floor and you touch the ball before it touches or is touched by another player, it is an illegal dribble. If the ball does not touch the floor and you touch the ball before it touches or is touched by another player, it is a travel.

A fumble is defined in 4-21. If you deem the action to be a fumble, then it can legally be recovered. In the second part of your OP, I would judge that to be a fumble

I have some questions for you based upon your response.

What if A1 is dribbling at the top of the FT semi-circle and in mid-dribble pushes a bounce pass to towards his teammate with only one hand? Did A1 end his dribble? Can he run over and be the first to touch the ball?

What if A1 is holding the ball and throws a bounce pass towards his teammate who doesn't see it. Can he run over and be the first to touch the ball?

Do you believe that the Case Book is correct or that the Rules Book takes precedence for illegal dribble or traveling?

If he touches with one hand, and continues the dribble, no problem. If he picks it up with two, no problem, but he cannot dribble. Dribbled is now ended.

Nevadaref: I know you know the answers. Rather than pose the question - please answer. This will get confusing real quick. It may have already gotten confusing to some.

You were kind enough to provide a rules reference for the definition of fumble. Could you perchance do the same for the above pontification?

My Credit Card Is Ready ...
 

I would like to order a steam mop. I've seen your infomercials and think that it would make cleaning my kitchen floor a lot easier. However, I can't find the item number, nor can I find shipping information, on your website. I need your assistance.

Illegal dribble: 9-5
Travel: 4-44

You have to decide. Did he pass it or fumble it?

Unfortunately, some posters above are confused. A fumble is not a dribble and a dribble is not a fumble.

If you judge it to be a fumble, then the player can retrieve it.

If you judge that it was a pass, then the passer cannot touch the ball before it touches another player. If he does, it's an illegal dribble.

BTW, there's no such thing as a "pass to self." A pass is ALWAYS to another player.

Wrong, it is not an illegal dribble. The ball is loose on the court. All ten players may legally obtain possession of the ball. A dribble is defined very clearly in the book. This is not a dribble therefore, it can not be an illegal dribble. Perfectly legal play that everyone in stands will be crying for something when you actually should have nothing. Play on! There are restrictions on the the player on what he can / can not do with the ball once he has regained possession.

Wrong, it is not a travel. You can not travel when you do not have possession of the ball. This is a fumble and represents a loose ball. All ten players may legally obtain possession of the ball. Play on. Again, restrictions are on this player once he regains possession of ball.

Wrong, it's an illegal dribble. See case play 4.15.4C. It doesn't matter whether A1 "intended" to throw a pass or not.

Wrong, it's a travel. Case play 4.44.3D(b).

All of this assumes, of course, that the ball was "passed" and not fumbled.

For Players, Coaches, Fans, With No Casebook ...
 

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore, A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

4.44.3 SITUATION D: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Did you even read 9-5 before posting this? Either Scratch did or he knows it pretty darn well.

There's a specific case play where A1, having used his/her dribble, passes the ball toward A2. A2 is not looking and runs away and A1 recovers the ball after it bounces.

The ruling has gone back and forth as to whether it's an illegal dribble or a travel, but it's clear that it's a violation.

In each of these cases, he dribbles again making it an illegal dribble. The opponents backboard is defined in rule 4-4 as part of the floor therefore making it part of the definition of a dribble. There is no rule that prevents him from picking up a loose ball. The restrictions placed on the person make the play illegal and have absolutely nothing to do with the original post.

Rule 9-5 has nothing to do with original post. The original posts mentions nothing about dribbling again. You are trying to make a case for a rule that does not exist. Any player may retreive a loose ball. The only time a player is restricted from obtaining a loose ball that is clearly stated in rules is when player is making a throw in.

There is no such thing as a "loose ball" in NFHS rules. If it's a fumble, he may recover it, if it's a pass, it's an illegal dribble.

Are you honestly saying the first play in the OP is legal?

The "ruling" portion of the case play refutes you:

It's a violation when A1 touches the ball again, not when he dribbles again.

Bob,

Can you point me to this case? I'm having trouble locating it. In NCAA it's AR 88, but I'd like to locate it in the NFHS book too.

Okay, let me see if I understand this correctly.

If, as in the OP, the ball handler A1 has used his/her dribble...

If A1 fumbles the ball, he/she may take any number of steps and legally recover the ball (NFHS 4-21, 4.15.4D (d), NCAA 4-31.2). But unless the fumble touches another player before A1 recovers it, A1 may not dribble again legally. (NFHS 9-5-3, NCAA 9-7.1c)

If A1 attempts a bounce pass, which for whatever reason no teammate is there to receive, and A1 is the first to touch the ball after it has touched the floor, A1 has committed an illegal dribble/double dribble. (NFHS 9-5, NCAA 9-7.1, NCAA AR 88)

If A1 attempts a non-bounce pass, which for whatever reason no teammate is there to receive, and A1 moves beyond the prescribed pivot foot limits and catches the ball before it touches the ground, A1 has traveled. (NFHS 4-44, 4.44.3D (d), NCAA 4-70)

However, if A1 has not used his/her dribble...

If A1 fumbles the ball, he/she may recover the ball and legally begin a dribble. (The fumble-dribble-fumble maxim often quoted here)

If A1 attempts a bounce pass, which for whatever reason no teammate is there to receive, and A1 is the first to touch the ball after it has touched the floor, A1 has begun a dribble and may legally continue that dribble. If A1 recovers the ball in a way that ends the dribble, A1 may not legally dribble again.

If A1 attempts a non-bounce pass, which for whatever reason no teammate is there to receive, and A1 moves beyond the prescribed pivot foot limits and catches the ball before it touches the ground, A1 has still traveled. Having dribbled, or not dribbled, prior to this action is irrelevant.

Are any of those statements incorrect?

That's simply not true.

If it's a fumble, any player may retrieve the ball.

If it's a pass, touching it again before another player touches constitutes the start of a dribble. Since he's already used his dribble, the second dribble is illegal.

4.44.3 SITUATION D: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)


For years, this was called an illegal dribble. Then, it was called traveling. Now, it's just illegal. :)

Thank you :)

The original post still needs to be clarified. Did the pass touch the floor? If it did, it is perfectly legal. Case play states as such. However as for the case play in b) there is not rule that calls for this to be a violation. The case book gives a reference to infer it is illegal. READ Rule 9-4, 4-44 and 4-29. If rule book does not prevent it, it is legal. I will contact NFHS and get clarification on this. I am sure that the case play is how NFHS wants it called but there is absolutely NO rule that states its case. It is not in 4-44, 9-4, 9-5. It is an assumed rule that I have seen alot of officials try to enforce. They are making up rules and their application.

I will post clarification from KS and NFHS.

Sorry partner but you're the only one making up rules here. :(

9-5-3 is EXACTLY the corrrect rule, yet you can't see it.

The player has ended his dribble, has lost control of the ball because of a pass that has NOT touched another player.

If what you say were true, any player could end his dribble, throw the ball, run and retrieve after it hits the floor. Pardon me but that's ridiculous, it's not supported by rule, and in direct contradiction with 9-5-3. When you throw the ball, it hits the floor and you're the first player to touch it, that's the beginning of a dribble. If you've already used your dribble, then you've now committed an illegal dribble.

As for the case play, it does not infer that it is illegal. It states that it is illegal.

That's as clear as I can make it for you.

Don't bother. The NFHS has already answered your question. A player throwing a pass which strikes the floor, but isn't touched by another player constitutes a dribble if the original player is the first one to touch the ball again. So, if the player has not yet used his dribble this action is fine, but if he has, then this becomes an illegal dribble (double dribble) violation.

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 6: A1 jumps from the floor and secures a defensive re-bound. A1 then pivots toward the sideline where a teammate, A2, is standing for an outlet pass. Just as A1 releases the pass, A2 turns and runs down the court. A1 throws a soft bounce pass to where A2 was standing. A1 then moves and secures the ball without dribbling. RULING: Legal action. A1 had the pivot foot on the floor and began a dribble by throwing the ball to the floor (the bounce pass); the dribble ended when A1 secured the ball. Upon reaching the ball, A1 also could have continued the dribble. (4-15-3,4)

I'm anxious to see if KS has refuted this somehow; it would somehow fit in with their interpretation that a coach must be actively coaching in order to legally stand in the coaching box.

One more scenario...
 

Slightly different situation but what do you have. A1 has possession of the ball but has not dribbled. A1 rolls the ball down the court, then runs and retrieves it without any other players touching the ball, then a) passes to a teammate, or b) dribbles.

"THE GAME – Basketball is played by two teams of five players each. The purpose of each team is to throw the ball into its own basket and to prevent the other team from scoring. The ball may be thrown, batted, rolled or dribbled in any direction, subject to restrictions laid down in the following rules."

I cannot think of any rules that control rolling the ball. I'm tempted to say a) and b) are both legal actions. However, there will be some folks along shortly to argue that it's either a pass or the beginning of a dribble. I'll be interested to hear their arguments.