Avoiding Contact

[bas2456]

I've run into this play several times already this young season

A1 has a fast break, but he's not all alone. B1 hustles back on D, and sets up in LGP. A1, seeing this, clearly makes a concerted effort to avoid contact. B1 does not move while A1 is avoiding.

I've got no call, what do you have?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bas2456

I've run into this play several times already this young season

A1 has a fast break, but he's not all alone. B1 hustles back on D, and sets up in LGP. A1, seeing this, clearly makes a concerted effort to avoid contact. B1 does not move while A1 is avoiding.

I've got no call, what do you have?

Is there contact? Does it disadvantage or move B1? A1's intent is irrelevant here.

[chartrusepengui]

depends,

was there any contact? if not - nothing. However, B1 is not required to move just because A1 does. So if B1 had gained LGP and was in LPG when contacted by A1 whether he was going to basket or making a concerted effort to avoid contact, it is a PC on A1.

Would you tell the coach of A1 that you didn't call a block on B1 when they realized they didn't have LGP and were making a concerted effort to get out of A1's way when contact occurred and A1 lost the ball?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

depends,

was there any contact? if not - nothing. However, B1 is not required to move just because A1 does. So if B1 had gained LGP and was in LPG when contacted by A1 whether he was going to basket or making a concerted effort to avoid contact, it is a PC on A1.

Not necessarily. Contact isn't necessarily a foul. That said, "inent" is irrelevant.

[Clark Kent]

Full on contact = Player control foul.

A slight brush as A1 athletically avoids B1, but there is a brush and no displacement = nothing.

B1 sliding a hip or knee or shoulder in A1's direction as A1 avoids the contact = Block on B1

Any marginal contact with B1 in LGP would be a pure judgement call on the situation and would vary, depending on if I felt B1 flopped or A1 avoided contact.

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Is there contact? Does it disadvantage or move B1? A1's intent is irrelevant here.

There was slight contact in the play I'm thinking of, but it was neither advantageous nor disadvantageous to either player.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not necessarily. Contact isn't necessarily a foul. That said, "inent" is irrelevant.

I agree that intent is irrelevant. I was trying to say that if B1 has obtained and is in LGP and A1 makes contact - A1 is responsible for the contact. If there is contact and A1 gains any type of advantage whether in going to basket, up for a try, or even dishing to A2 because of the any slight advantage gained by contact it is going to be called. I would not give the offensive player any benefit of the doubt in this scenario. B1 did their job, A1 didn't.

[Jimmie24]

Why are we focused on him maintaining LGP? As long as B is able to gain LGP and then does not move towards A, he is fine. A in this scenario is solely responsiple for any and all contact that is made. B has done his job. Now the official must determine if it is enough contact to warrant a player control foul. If it is not then there is nothing to call. If there is bang it and move on. All B has to do is establish his position. He does not need to maintain LGP. He could turn around and duck to try and avoid a big collision and he still is able to maintain status.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bas2456

There was slight contact in the play I'm thinking of, but it was neither advantageous nor disadvantageous to either player.

It sounds like a no-call to me, but intent has nothing to do with it. If B1 was not disadvantaged nor displaced in any way, play on.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jimmie24

Why are we focused on him maintaining LGP? As long as B is able to gain LGP and then does not move towards A, he is fine. A in this scenario is solely responsiple for any and all contact that is made. B has done his job. Now the official must determine if it is enough contact to warrant a player control foul. If it is not then there is nothing to call. If there is bang it and move on. All B has to do is establish his position. He does not need to maintain LGP. He could turn around and duck to try and avoid a big collision and he still is able to maintain status.

All those things you said are "maintaining LGP"

[Jimmie24]

Not really. LGP is a status gained by having both feet on the floor and facing an opponent. If I turn my back I am not in LGP. But I still have that section of the floor. Same thing if my back is turned to an opponent and he decided to run me over on his way to the basket. I don't have LGP, but I have the right to my position on the floor.

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by Jimmie24

Not really. LGP is a status gained by having both feet on the floor and facing an opponent. If I turn my back I am not in LGP. But I still have that section of the floor. Same thing if my back is turned to an opponent and he decided to run me over on his way to the basket. I don't have LGP, but I have the right to my position on the floor.

Wrong.

4-23-2 talks about "obtaining" legal guarding position.
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

then 4-23-3 defines it AFTER legal guarding position is obtained:
a.
b. The guard is NOT required to continue facing the opponent
c.
d.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of the imminent contact

[Jimmie24]

PHP Code:

Wrong.

4-23-2 talks about "obtaining" legal guarding position.
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

then 4-23-3 defines it AFTER legal guarding position is obtained:
a. 
b. The guard is NOT required to continue facing the opponent
c.
d. 
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of the imminent contact 


PHP Code:

Same thing if my back is turned to an opponent and he decided to run me over on his way to the basket. I don't have LGP, but I have the right to my position on the floor. 


I didn't say I had LGP here, I am entitled to my space on the floor. Just because I am not facing and obtaining LGP doesn't mean I can't get a player control foul. Look at it this way. If I am guarding another guy and my back is towards the player with the ball, other than my coach screaming at me to see the ball, if the dribbler drives through me on his way to the basket is it player control?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jimmie24

I didn't say I had LGP here, I am entitled to my space on the floor. Just because I am not facing and obtaining LGP doesn't mean I can't get a player control foul. Look at it this way. If I am guarding another guy and my back is towards the player with the ball, other than my coach screaming at me to see the ball, if the dribbler drives through me on his way to the basket is it player control?

You asked about the OP, then later claimed:

Originally Posted by Jimmie24

Not really. LGP is a status gained by having both feet on the floor and facing an opponent. If I turn my back I am not in LGP. But I still have that section of the floor. Same thing if my back is turned to an opponent and he decided to run me over on his way to the basket. I don't have LGP, but I have the right to my position on the floor.

The part in red is what's incorrect. Turning your back at that point does not lose LGP. You are correct that LGP is not required for a PC foul as long as you are stationary. LGP allows certain movements at the point of contact by the defender, but a stationary player does not require it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bas2456

There was slight contact in the play I'm thinking of, but it was neither advantageous nor disadvantageous to either player.

If this is true, no matter what else did or didn't happen, no foul.