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Re: Re: Re: You can't score the basket

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by ripian
Now normally I am a by-the-book official and rules will be enforced as they are interputted in the rulebook (that is why it is there, afterall) BUT in this situation I would have to say that the book does not correctly cover this play and this is why I would choose to refer to NCAA R2-S3-A1 and apply the "elastic powers" provision to do the correct thing for the game.

NCAA 5-1-7 and NF 5-2-4 say
The only infractions for which points are AWARDED are goaltending by the defense or basket interference at the opponent's basket.

2-3-1 says
The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

Now, what point is it that you guys don't understand? When an official can award points is covered by the rules. You can't ignore the rule and decide that you're going to award points in another situation. It says specifically that you can only award points for GT or BI.

Very clear. Crystal clear.

I agree with Tony completely on this one.Unless the block includes BI or GT,you can't award a basket.This sitch is completely different than the last one,where the shooter was fouled-and you could use R2-3 to award the number of shots normally applicable on a foul.In this one,I think all you can do,following the guidelines in the book,is issue a T for coming off the bench and then a flagrant T for interfering in the play.That means 4 FT's and the ball,if any time is remaining.The FT's have to be shot as part of the 4th quarter also,again according to the guidelines in the book.JMO!

I'll just add that no matter what happens, a report should be sent to the appropriate parties (conference if NCAA; state if HS).

Even if the officials can't, by rule, forfeit this game, there's nothing that says it can't be forfeited later.

Quote:

Originally posted by ur call
How could you forfeit the game. If the situation occurred in the middle of the game, what would you call? Remember the old rule call it the same at the beginning as you would at the end of the game. The period does not end until the ball becomes dead even if the horn has sounded.

This situation cannot occur in the middle of the game, because part of the situation is that it is at the end of the game! In the middle of the game, if this happened, you'd award the appropriate number of free-throws, toss B6, give the ball back to Team A after the free-throws and go on. The game would then be won or lost by whoever. But part of the original situation as described above is that Team A has their only chance to win taken away in a manner that is egregiously unsportsmanlike. B6 probably thinks he's clever to take the DQ, giving the shooting team only two shots for the T, and thereby winning the game for B. This sort of twisted logic must not be allowed to succeed. If there were any chance that team A might not hit enough foul shots to win, I'd forfeit.

Bob Jenkins, Did we agree that we couldn't forfeit?

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Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

In the middle of the game, if this happened, you'd award the appropriate number of free-throws, toss B6, give the ball back to Team A after the free-throws and go on. The game would then be won or lost by whoever. But part of the original situation as described above is that Team A has their only chance to win taken away in a manner that is egregiously unsportsmanlike. B6 probably thinks he's clever to take the DQ, giving the shooting team only two shots for the T, and thereby winning the game for B. This sort of twisted logic must not be allowed to succeed. If there were any chance that team A might not hit enough foul shots to win, I'd forfeit.

Bob Jenkins, Did we agree that we couldn't forfeit? [/B][/QUOTE]Juulie,I'd like to make the following points:
1)Whether this happened in the middle of the game or at the very end,you should try to handle a situation like this consistently according to the direction of the rule book.
2)In this particular case,you have enough direction in the rule book to handle it appropriately without even resorting to R2-3.You can charge an original T to the bench player,under R10-4-2,for coming onto the floor.You can charge an additional T to the bench player,under R10-4-1,for committing an unsporting foul.You can make the 2nd T flagrant under R4-19-4.Doing it this way gives A a chance to win,punishes B for the egregious unsportsmanlike act,and can be explained explicitly by rule.
3)Any time that you go to R2-3 or a forfeit,you had better be ready to explain why you did so-to a league administrator or your referee supervisor-instead of using what's already in the rules.I don't think that you can come up with a good explanation in this case,especially when it's already covered elsewhere in the rules.
4)I can't speak for Bob Jenkins,but what I think he is referring to is R5-4-1.The language there states that you can only forfeit a game for REPEATED infractions which make a travesty of the game.This particular sitch contains one infraction only.Again,if there's language in the book covering a situation,I think you should use that language.

This may be like asking for water in the desert, but have we come up with a solution yet?
Here is what I gather (in layman's terms)
1. B6 gets T for coming off the bench
2. B6 gets T for unsportsmanlike conduct
3. If there is time left on the clock Team A gets the ball back

The Grey area
1. Does Team B get a T for 6 players on the floor
2. Did A1 get fouled by B6 on the shot?
3. What is the justification for giving A1 FT's for the 3pt attempt

It would seem to my limited scope that once the Technical foul occurs, play is dead. Therefore, where do the 3 ft's come from? Would you call a dead ball flagrant on B6 as well as the 2 T's? I am so confused and have to go back to work!!

Quote:

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
This may be like asking for water in the desert, but have we come up with a solution yet?
Here is what I gather (in layman's terms)
1. B6 gets T for coming off the bench
2. B6 gets T for unsportsmanlike conduct
3. If there is time left on the clock Team A gets the ball back

The Grey area
1. Does Team B get a T for 6 players on the floor
2. Did A1 get fouled by B6 on the shot?
3. What is the justification for giving A1 FT's for the 3pt attempt

It would seem to my limited scope that once the Technical foul occurs, play is dead. Therefore, where do the 3 ft's come from? Would you call a dead ball flagrant on B6 as well as the 2 T's? I am so confused and have to go back to work!!

Uh,Fletch,you're in the wrong thread.T'other one had someone off the bench fouling the shooter on a missed 3-pointer.This one has someone off the bench blocking a shot.Different circumstances.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Juulie,I'd like to make the following points:
1)Whether this happened in the middle of the game or at the very end,you should try to handle a situation like this consistently according to the direction of the rule book.
2)In this particular case,you have enough direction in the rule book to handle it appropriately without even resorting to R2-3.You can charge an original T to the bench player,under R10-4-2,for coming onto the floor.You can charge an additional T to the bench player,under R10-4-1,for committing an unsporting foul.You can make the 2nd T flagrant under R4-19-4.Doing it this way gives A a chance to win,punishes B for the egregious unsportsmanlike act,and can be explained explicitly by rule.
3)Any time that you go to R2-3 or a forfeit,you had better be ready to explain why you did so-to a league administrator or your referee supervisor-instead of using what's already in the rules.I don't think that you can come up with a good explanation in this case,especially when it's already covered elsewhere in the rules.
4)I can't speak for Bob Jenkins,but what I think he is referring to is R5-4-1.The language there states that you can only forfeit a game for REPEATED infractions which make a travesty of the game.This particular sitch contains one infraction only.Again,if there's language in the book covering a situation,I think you should use that language.

I see your point, and my rule books got stolen along with my ditty bag in June, so I can't go back and find any references to back my self up. I think free throws and the ball back makes sense, but a forfeit would still be a possibility that I could imagine.

If team A lost, I would definitely be writing the league a letter recommending some sort of further penalty for team B.