lets say this is the situation.
team A is down by 3 with 2 sec. left in regulation. A throws the ball into the corner to A2 who attempts a 3 point shot. a player from team B runs off the bench(behind where A2 cannot see him) onto the court and cleanly blocks the shot after the horn sounds to end regulation.

1. what is a fair and just penalty for this situation?

2. is this situation directly covered by fed. or nc2a rules or case book plays?

This would be a senerio where I could support the forfeit.
(I couldn't find a case sit to cover this)

If the team B player runs from the other end of the court where HIS bench area is,then runs through his opponent's bench area,and then goes onto the floor to block a shot-I'd say you're getting into the travesty area.Turn out the lights.A just won themselves a ballgame by forfeit!
B being out of his bench area or coming on to the floor is covered.There's no rule covering the actual shot block that I know off.

If the ball has not left the shooters hands, then turn and get the heck off the floor. Game is over, not need to cause yourself more grief.

If it was away in time, Then I think the other thread still applies.

I have a hard time, morally, calling a game by one persons actions that last only a second. It is not like the rest of the team could have stopped him, an I bet he won't be on the bench much after that game was over. I just think if I had to go in front of the commish, that I could not sell a forfeit.

It is like giving three shots for a T, it just feels wrong.

I know it is not in the book, but how about counting the hoop, tossing B, and playing OT. If the shot goes in, we have a tie, so count it and go from there.

Okay, that seems stupid, but aren't the other choices forfeit for A or rule two shots for the T and give the game to B?

Options that I could see falling under Rule 2, Section 3, Art 1 of the NCAA rules.

1. Count the basket, Flagrant Technical on B player. Start the overtime with 2 FT for Team A.

2. Flagrant Technical on B player, 2 FT and ball at half-court for team A with the 2 seconds back on the clock and give team A a chance to win in regulation.

3. Flagrant Technical on B player, because A2 was in the act of shooting award 3 FT with no time on the clock for the chance to tie.

4. Forfit the game. Team A wins.

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My personal option would be option 1. And here is why... This would allow both teams an equal chance to win the game in the overtime. The B player who caused the situation in the first place is gone and I think that would be what is best for that particular game.

The B coach couldn't really argue the ruling either, because if it came down to it he could be turfed as well for failing to control his bench. Unless it was a coaching desicion to have the B player block the shot. If that were the case, I'd forfit the game.

The Flagrant Technical occurred during the fourth quarter -- the free throws will be shot before the OT begins.

Under FIFA rules - this is how I would handle it:

- Bench technical foul for a substitute illegally entering the game. 2 free throws plus possession.

- A disqualifying foul for the substitute that blocks the shot. Another 3 shots, plus possession (DQ foul on 3 point attempt = 3 shots). The justification - an unsportsmanlike act that brought the game into disrepute.

So Team A gets five free throws, which can be shot by any player currently on the court, if there is any time left on the clock, then Team A also gets the ball back at half court.

And, if Coach B even looks at me funny while making these calls - I'll toss them as well since he is making me do his job by not controlling his bench.


Would this scenario work for NFHS/NCAA?

Works for me!! If you're not going to forfeit the game, then five shots by anyone and the ball back seems like the best penalty. And DQ for the booger-nose that did it.

[Edited by rainmaker on Aug 5th, 2002 at 11:25 AM]

first of all i believe(totally) this play is not specifically covered by the rule book.

secondly i believe the offense should be compensated in a way to (at the least) tie the game in this specific situation.

this is what i would do: first i would score the basket, then assess a technical foul to the player coming off the bench and give the offense 2 free throws to win by hitting one or going to OT by missing both. the defense should not be allowed to win the game by circumventing the rules and making a travesty of the game. i would penalize this situation the same in both highschool and nc2a.

You can't score the basket
 

As much as it seems the "right" thing to do, scoring the basket is not one of the legal options, either in NF or NCAA.

NF. 5-2-4 ....The only infractions for which points are AWARDED are goaltending by the defense or basket interference at the opponent's basket.

NCAA. 5-1-7... (reads identical to the NF rule).

Since this rule is in the book, I don't think you can use the elasticity clause to score the points. Maybe you can find a way to make sure enough free throws are taken, but the key is that the points must be earned, not given.

priamry and secondary purpose of penalties!
 

each offical should have a definate and clear conception of his overall responsibility to include the intent and purpose of each rule. if all officials possess the same conception there will be a guranteed uniformity in the administration of all contests.
the restrictions placed upon a player by the rules are intended to create a balance of play, equal opportunity for the defense and offense, provide reasonable safety and protection for all players and emphasize cleverness and skill without unduly limiting freedom of action of players or team.
the primary purpose of penalties is to compensate a player who has been placed at a disadvantage through an illegal act of an opponent. a secondary purpose is to restrain players from committing acts which, if ignored, might lead to roughness even though they do not affect the immediate play. to implement this philosophy, many of the rules are written in general terms while the need for the rule may have been created by specific play situations. this practice eliminates the necessity for many additional rules and provides the officials lattitude and authority to adapt application of the rules to fit conditions of play in any particular game

How could you forfeit the game. If the situation occurred in the middle of the game, what would you call? Remember the old rule call it the same at the beginning as you would at the end of the game. The period does not end until the ball becomes dead even if the horn has sounded.

Your main concern should be getting the calls right that you see every game and not worry so much on the what if's.

[Edited by ur call on Aug 7th, 2002 at 11:52 AM]

Re: You can't score the basket
 

I would with you on your reference to the rules though I do disagree with your interputation in this instance. Both teams have worked hard to be in a position to win the game at the end and to allow a sub to run off the bench and block a potential game tieing shot is clearly a traversy of the game. With no time left on the clock I would not but putting the pressure on a player to hit 3 FT just to tie the game and send it to OT. The correct thing for the game IMHO is to count the basket and assess a Flargent Technical foul to the B player. By sending the game to OT this allows the people, and by that I mean the players, to decide the outcome of the game. Unlike crew (whom I respect) I would not allow Team A to shoot the FT awarded for the Technical Foul and end the game at that point. The FT would be shot before the beginning of the OT for the same reason - To allow the players to decide the outcome of the game. Allowing Team A to shoot FT to end the game in regulation (who were wronged in the first place) again IMHO would not provide for a fair ending for Team B eventhough that team member potentially blew the win for them. By counting the 3 point basket and ejecting the B player (which I believe is punishment enough) and sending the game to OT I still believe is the correct course of action for this game.

Now normally I am a by-the-book official and rules will be enforced as they are interputted in the rulebook (that is why it is there, afterall) BUT in this situation I would have to say that the book does not correctly cover this play and this is why I would choose to refer to NCAA R2-S3-A1 and apply the "elastic powers" provision to do the correct thing for the game.

Re: Re: You can't score the basket
 

NCAA 5-1-7 and NF 5-2-4 say
The only infractions for which points are AWARDED are goaltending by the defense or basket interference at the opponent's basket.

2-3-1 says
The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

Now, what point is it that you guys don't understand? When an official can award points is covered by the rules. You can't ignore the rule and decide that you're going to award points in another situation. It says specifically that you can only award points for GT or BI.

Very clear. Crystal clear.

Re: Re: Re: You can't score the basket
 

I agree with Tony completely on this one.Unless the block includes BI or GT,you can't award a basket.This sitch is completely different than the last one,where the shooter was fouled-and you could use R2-3 to award the number of shots normally applicable on a foul.In this one,I think all you can do,following the guidelines in the book,is issue a T for coming off the bench and then a flagrant T for interfering in the play.That means 4 FT's and the ball,if any time is remaining.The FT's have to be shot as part of the 4th quarter also,again according to the guidelines in the book.JMO!

I'll just add that no matter what happens, a report should be sent to the appropriate parties (conference if NCAA; state if HS).

Even if the officials can't, by rule, forfeit this game, there's nothing that says it can't be forfeited later.

This situation cannot occur in the middle of the game, because part of the situation is that it is at the end of the game! In the middle of the game, if this happened, you'd award the appropriate number of free-throws, toss B6, give the ball back to Team A after the free-throws and go on. The game would then be won or lost by whoever. But part of the original situation as described above is that Team A has their only chance to win taken away in a manner that is egregiously unsportsmanlike. B6 probably thinks he's clever to take the DQ, giving the shooting team only two shots for the T, and thereby winning the game for B. This sort of twisted logic must not be allowed to succeed. If there were any chance that team A might not hit enough foul shots to win, I'd forfeit.

Bob Jenkins, Did we agree that we couldn't forfeit?

In the middle of the game, if this happened, you'd award the appropriate number of free-throws, toss B6, give the ball back to Team A after the free-throws and go on. The game would then be won or lost by whoever. But part of the original situation as described above is that Team A has their only chance to win taken away in a manner that is egregiously unsportsmanlike. B6 probably thinks he's clever to take the DQ, giving the shooting team only two shots for the T, and thereby winning the game for B. This sort of twisted logic must not be allowed to succeed. If there were any chance that team A might not hit enough foul shots to win, I'd forfeit.

Bob Jenkins, Did we agree that we couldn't forfeit? [/B][/QUOTE]Juulie,I'd like to make the following points:
1)Whether this happened in the middle of the game or at the very end,you should try to handle a situation like this consistently according to the direction of the rule book.
2)In this particular case,you have enough direction in the rule book to handle it appropriately without even resorting to R2-3.You can charge an original T to the bench player,under R10-4-2,for coming onto the floor.You can charge an additional T to the bench player,under R10-4-1,for committing an unsporting foul.You can make the 2nd T flagrant under R4-19-4.Doing it this way gives A a chance to win,punishes B for the egregious unsportsmanlike act,and can be explained explicitly by rule.
3)Any time that you go to R2-3 or a forfeit,you had better be ready to explain why you did so-to a league administrator or your referee supervisor-instead of using what's already in the rules.I don't think that you can come up with a good explanation in this case,especially when it's already covered elsewhere in the rules.
4)I can't speak for Bob Jenkins,but what I think he is referring to is R5-4-1.The language there states that you can only forfeit a game for REPEATED infractions which make a travesty of the game.This particular sitch contains one infraction only.Again,if there's language in the book covering a situation,I think you should use that language.

This may be like asking for water in the desert, but have we come up with a solution yet?
Here is what I gather (in layman's terms)
1. B6 gets T for coming off the bench
2. B6 gets T for unsportsmanlike conduct
3. If there is time left on the clock Team A gets the ball back

The Grey area
1. Does Team B get a T for 6 players on the floor
2. Did A1 get fouled by B6 on the shot?
3. What is the justification for giving A1 FT's for the 3pt attempt

It would seem to my limited scope that once the Technical foul occurs, play is dead. Therefore, where do the 3 ft's come from? Would you call a dead ball flagrant on B6 as well as the 2 T's? I am so confused and have to go back to work!!

Uh,Fletch,you're in the wrong thread.T'other one had someone off the bench fouling the shooter on a missed 3-pointer.This one has someone off the bench blocking a shot.Different circumstances.

I see your point, and my rule books got stolen along with my ditty bag in June, so I can't go back and find any references to back my self up. I think free throws and the ball back makes sense, but a forfeit would still be a possibility that I could imagine.

If team A lost, I would definitely be writing the league a letter recommending some sort of further penalty for team B.