Artists in residence?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If I recall they changed that ruling in the following years because tattoos are permanent. I do not think that even applies anymore.

JRutledge: Of course permanent tattoos are permanent, but the point of emphasis states that they can be covered. Coaches, with, or without, the backing of the NFHS, or NCAA, have done this for years with their players. Dru Joyce did ths with LeBron James at St. Vincent-St. Mary High School, and Geno Auriemma does this at the University of Connecticut. Although I find you to be a very credible poster, I don't recall anything coming form the NFHS since 1996-97 regarding tattoos, either confirming this point of emphasis, or overturning this point of emphasis, so, as is my usual request, with all due respect, citation please.

"Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe" (John 20:25)

[BillyMac]

Here are mine. Guess my religion, and my ancestry, and pick a prize off the top shelf.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

JRutledge: Of course permanent tattoos are permanent, but the point of emphasis states that they can be covered. Coaches, with, or without, the backing of the NFHS, or NCAA, have done this for years with their players. Dru Joyce did ths with LeBron James at St. Vincent-St. Mary High School, and Geno Auriemma does this at the University of Connecticut. Although I find you to be a very credible poster, I don't recall anything coming form the NFHS since 1996-97 regarding tattoos, either confirming this point of emphasis, or overturning this point of emphasis, so, as is my usual request, with all due respect, citation please.

"Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe" (John 20:25)

Well I am not going to have a citation because that was well over 10 years ago and according to what I have been told these old rulings no longer apply anyway. I am just saying that this ruling was about 13-14 years ago and I remember them modifying the interpretation on this because it would cause so many legal and religious problems. And unless you can find something more recent or current, I would be careful trying to use this so it applied in today's game. I was told a few years ago if there is an interpretation no longer in the casebook there is a reason for this.

Also the Lebron James situation I remember. This was the school's decision to have his tattoos covered up, not the officials or the OHSAA. I even remember this being discussed in the broadcasts at the time and on here. We may have to go back and do a search, but I am almost positive this was discussed here in some detail.

I am sorry I just have a fundamental problem with these very old rulings that only officials like you that keep these rulebooks for several years can find. There are many officials that have not started officiating yet and have no idea where this ruling is or if it even applies.

Peace

[BillyMac]

(With apologies to General Douglas MacArthur)

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am sorry I just have a fundamental problem with these very old rulings that only officials like you that keep these rulebooks for several years can find. There are many officials that have not started officiating yet and have no idea where this ruling is or if it even applies.

Agree. How can rookie officials get access to points of emphasis, that may have only appeared in a single year's rulebook, or annual interpretations, that may never make their way, permanently, into the casebook? Case in point. I remember when heel activated lights in sneakers first came out. The NFHS came out with an immediate ruling, I believe that it was a midseason ruling, that these were not appropriate. It took several years for this ruling to make its way, permanently, into the casebook. Rookie officials who started officiating in the time period between the immediate ruling, and when the ruling became a permanent part of the casebook, would have no way to know about this interpretation.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

According to what I have been told these old rulings no longer apply anyway. And unless you can find something more recent or current, I would be careful trying to use this so it applied in today's game. I was told a few years ago if there is an interpretation no longer in the casebook there is a reason for this.

I'm not sure that I fully agree with you here. Yes, there is always a reason for an interpretation not being in the casebook. One reason is for a rule change that made the casebook play no longer applicable. Another reason is a mistake by the editor, as in the rulebook mistake about the captain requesting a lineup after many substitutes reporting, which was left out of the rulebook for several years until the error was realized. Another may be to simply conserve space, if some case plays weren't deleted occasionally, the casebook would be much longer than it's present length. I'm not convinced that just because a interpretation is no longer in the casebook that it is always no longer valid. If you can find a citation, or some other form of evidence, to convince me that such rulings are no longer valid, please do so.

At some point the the NFHS must address this problem, that is, rookie officials having the same access to rules, and interpretations, that we veterans have, such as notes that we all take at our local association meetings, often regarding interpretations that our local association interpreters receive from the NFHS, either through meetings, conference calls, emails, etc., that never find a permanent "home", that is, published, somewhere.

[JRutledge]

Billy,

I was told by someone that actually sat on a rules committee about how the process works. It is not based on my personal opinion (there was an issue with a ruling that we talked about in my state a few years back). I was specifically told that if the ruling is not in the current casebook, they have been changed for a reason and likely do not apply. And I would feel really weary about using a ruling that is over 10 years old for all kinds of reasons. Maybe if the ruling came out a couple of years ago then I could understand. But the ruling you gave was the year I started officiating, I would not feel comfortable saying that is valid because so many interpretations have changed and been modified since then.

And I agree that the NF needs to do more to keep up with old rulings better than they currently do. They could keep an online database.

Peace

[BillyMac]

JRutledge: Thanks for your explanation. I never thought that your posts regarding this were your personal opinion. I always thought that you were relaying knowledge that you gained access to from a credible local, state, or national source.

That being said, if I walk out for a game, and while observing the layup lines, I observe a player with a tattoo that is truly, 100% no doubt in my mind, racist, sexist, homophobic, obscene, vulgar, etc., so as to be deemed by me to be unsportsmanlike, taunting, or baiting, I'm citing the 1996-97 NFHS Point of Emphasis and I will ask the player to tape over the tattoo, and if he, or she, doesn't comply, they're not playing in my game. I'm 100% sure that, in my little corner of Connecticut, those in authority will back me up. I also believe that there may be different guidelines in your neck of the woods, be it local, or state.

Just out of curiosity, if presented with the same player, with the same tattoo, that you are 100% sure is racist, sexist, homophobic, obscene, vulgar, etc., and deemed to be unsportsmanlike, taunting, or baiting, what would you do in your neck of the woods?

Also, I like your idea of a NFHS online database, but not an archive, because I would like interpretations that are no longer valid due to rule changes, to be removed, or reworded.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just out of curiosity, if presented with the same player, with the same tattoo, that you are 100% sure is racist, sexist, homophobic, obscene, vulgar, etc., and deemed to be unsportsmanlike, taunting, or baiting, what would you do in your neck of the woods?

Let him or her play and fill out and send a "special report form" to the state.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Let him or her play and fill out and send a "special report form" to the state.

In my neck of the woods, we've been told that we should direct them to cover it or they will not play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just out of curiosity, if presented with the same player, with the same tattoo, that you are 100% sure is racist, sexist, homophobic, obscene, vulgar, etc., and deemed to be unsportsmanlike, taunting, or baiting, what would you do in your neck of the woods?

Like Bob said we have a way to inform our state of those kinds of issues. I would contact them and let them handle it. And I am not looking for what tattoos say or looking at their meaning. And all tattoos are not easy to see and I am honestly not trying to go looking for crap. Then I would the state take a position on this issue. But I can tell you there were people that tried to enforce rules based on uniform only to have our state take a position to allow religious expression as an example.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Welpe

In my neck of the woods, we've been told that we should direct them to cover it or they will not play.

NFHS 10-3-6-C: A player shall not: Bait or taunt an opponent. NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances including on the basis of race, religion, gender or national origin.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not looking for what tattoos say or looking at their meaning. And all tattoos are not easy to see and I am honestly not trying to go looking for crap.

You're right. I've got a lot more important things look for during the pregame warmup period, court safety issues, number of players, illegal equipment, illegal uniforms, dunking, tendencies of players, etc. Trying to figure out exactly what a tattoo says is not one of my top priorities, but if a coach, or site director, points out an obvious problem, then I've got a rule (NFHS 10-3-6-C), and an old point of emphasis (1996-97 Point of Emphasis) that will allow me to deal with it, and then follow it up with a report to my assigner, and our state high school sports governing body.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I've learned it is always better to stick with the rules.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Not enforcing rules causes problems, especially for the next official that has their game and has the same situation come up.