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Philz

Mon Oct 05, 2009 04:11pm

I'm Back

After taking 8 months off from officiating BB because of burn out and discuss and considering given it up all togethere I got the itch again and came back with a bang.
I was working a 7th/8th grade league that the season is only 5 weeks long...doesnt mean anything and just a warm up for the up comning season.
I called 4 techs in 3 games. I wont get into details but they were all very warrented.
My question is: Were playing NFHS rules. I gave Techs to coaches and after the tech the coaches still were still standing and I told them they had to sit because that what I was taught thought that was the rule. Both coaches said they wouldnt sit and I ask the other official that actually was running this short league and he said it would be ok and if they get out of hand anymore we'll send them.
I read the rule book and didn't see anything about them having to sit but it did say they loose there coaching box privledge. What does that mean?
Thanks

Splute

Mon Oct 05, 2009 04:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philz (Post 629044)

The rule you seek is 10-5-1a. It defines when a coach may stand also after a tech.
The coaching box is rule 1-13-2 but can be modified by state association adoption (ie: in Texas we have a 6 foot coaching box)

jdmara

Mon Oct 05, 2009 04:48pm

Splute is right on this one. The seat belt rule is by state adoption.

For years here in Iowa the boys side had the seat belt rule while the girls side did not. Once again, the joys of having two governing bodies.

-Josh

Ref Ump Welsch

Mon Oct 05, 2009 05:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 629052)

The boys started the game with the center circle ball toss, while the girls started with the coin toss. :rolleyes:

jdmara

Mon Oct 05, 2009 05:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch (Post 629069)

The boys started the game with the center circle ball toss, while the girls started with the coin toss. :rolleyes:

There is another fine example. The rules differences are 5 or 6 now

-Josh

Ref Ump Welsch

Mon Oct 05, 2009 07:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 629072)

There is another fine example. The rules differences are 5 or 6 now

-Josh

Actually, I can't think of much rules differences other than the coaches standing. Am I forgetting something? (Forgive me, but most of my games are on the Nebraska side of the river)

BillyMac

Mon Oct 05, 2009 08:02pm

Heads I Win, Tails You Lose ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch (Post 629069)

The girls started with the coin toss.

Now you have my undivided attention.

Ref Ump Welsch

Tue Oct 06, 2009 07:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 629097)

Now you have my undivided attention.

Coin toss determined who took the ball out of bounds at the division line to start the game. No center jump.

Back In The Saddle

Tue Oct 06, 2009 08:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 629052)

Not exactly true. The ability to stand and coach (i.e., the coaches box) is by state adoption. But after the first T to the head coach, direct or indirect, s/he is no longer allowed to stand to coach. And there is no provision for the state to change that.

jdmara

Tue Oct 06, 2009 09:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch (Post 629084)

Actually, I can't think of much rules differences other than the coaches standing. Am I forgetting something? (Forgive me, but most of my games are on the Nebraska side of the river)

I'll find the sheet this afternoon. The list is becoming minimal and nothing to really worry about

-Josh

jdmara

Tue Oct 06, 2009 09:56am

Ok, I know I would forget this afternoon so I just did it now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://www.ighsau.org/hoops/2010/910bbadaptations.htm

2009-10 Iowa Adaptations for Girls’ Basketball

Adaptation #1 Home uniforms shall be white in color and shall have even numbers. Away uniforms shall be a color other than white and shall have odd numbers. (Required for varsity only)

Adaptation #2 In addition to the numbers allowed by National Federation rule, the numbers 01, 02, 03, 04, and 05 are legal. The numbers 0 and 00 are considered as the even number alternative to 1 and 01. A team shall not use 0 and 00 etc., in the same game. Beginning in 2012-13, the NF rule will be followed making these numbers illegal.

Adaptation #3 COACHES SHALL REMAIN SEATED ON THE BENCH AT ALL TIMES DURING THE GAME WITH THE FOLLOWING EXCEPTIONS:

a) During a time-out, coaches may leave the bench to confer with players in the time-out area.

b) In case of an injury, coaches may leave the bench to aid an injured player, provided they are beckoned onto the court by an official.

c) During an intermission, coaches may leave the bench to attend to their squads.

d) Requesting a prevention or rectification of a correctable error (Rule 2-10) as specified under Rule 5-8-4.

e) Stand up to show approval for an exciting play in the game, when a basket is scored or an outstanding play takes place by a member of their team, and then must immediately return to the bench.

f) The coach may stand up to call a time-out when his team has the ball, whether the clock is running or not and signal to call time-out.

g) Stand up to congratulate a player being substituted for.

h) The coach may confer with personnel at the scorer’s table regarding a timing error, scoring error, or alternating-possession error. If an error is not prevented or corrected, the team shall be charged with a time-out.

i) The coach will be allowed to stand and confer with a player(s) whenever the clock is NOT running. Communication with the player(s) only shall be done in a positive manner and shall take place directly in front of where the coach was seated. When the clock starts following a throw-in or last missed free throw, the coach shall immediately return to his/her seat. The officials will not delay a throw-in administration to permit a coach additional dead clock time to visit with player(s). This will allow coaches additional opportunities to stand up and instruct players while the clock is NOT running during the game.

j) Disqualified player---Upon the head coach’s notification of the disqualified player, the coach may stand to congratulate the disqualified player and may walk the confines of his/her bench to select a replacement for the disqualified player. The rule states that a disqualified player must be replaced within 20 seconds from the time the coach was notified. Any unsporting acts by the coaches are subject to being assessed a technical foul.

Adaptation #4 Wristbands and Headwear---We will be adhering to Rule 3-5-3 regarding wristbands and headwear with the following exceptions. Anything worn in the hair (including headbands) must be soft and unadorned but may be any color or multi-colored and do not have to match for all teammates. Bobby pins 2” or less will also be allowed. Wristbands may be any color or multi-colored and do not have to match for all teammates, but must be moisture-absorbing material. Lance Armstrong bracelets, rubber bands, etc., are still illegal as they are not moisture-absorbing.

Ref Ump Welsch

Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:23am

Thanks Josh. So basically, the girls have aligned themselves with the boys as far as the coaches standing in front of the bench goes. For those of you not familiar with Iowa, the girls coaches were allowed to walk in front of the entire bench (bench being defined as the first seat all the way to the last seat occupied), while the boys coaches were pretty much seatbelted with the exceptions listed in Josh's posting. Now both the girls and boys follow the same policy.

The uniform number thing, I haven't seen any of that around my part. Josh, have you seen it, or have the schools started moving towards the numbers being illegal a couple years down the road?

jdmara

Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch (Post 629194)

Yes, the girls side was seatbelted two years ago (don't quote me on that).

I have not seen it around here either (although this is only my second year in Iowa. I was previously in Lexington). We did have one instance last year where the coach wrote an odd number accidentally. We corrected it before the book was approved.

I could be wrong but I'm sure the headband rule has changed from last year. Last year we did not allow multi-colored headbands and each team member must have the same color. Unless we enforced it incorrectly last year that is a change :eek:

-Josh

Vinski

Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:48pm

My opinion: Your partner didn’t do anyone any favors by letting those coaches stand. By rule they are suppose to sit after a T (see rule 10-5 note 1, and is not considered modifiable by state adoption). You told them to sit and they didn’t. That should have been an ejection and your partner should back you on that. In fact, your partner should have been the one to tell the coach to sit.
If you tell them to sit and they don’t and then you go ask your partner what he thinks and then he says let them stand, that makes you look not so credible and your authority and judgment is now questioned for the rest of the game and possibly future games.

I had a coach that refused to sit once, so I ejected him. He had a fit and wouldn’t leave. I quietly asked the score keeper to get the AD. At that point the coach left. Last I heard was that he doesn’t coach anymore because the parents were very displeased by his behavior.

You need to stick to your guns and your partner needs to be a better partner.

SAK	Tue Oct 06, 2009 01:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 629186)

Adaptation #4 Wristbands and Headwear---We will be adhering to Rule 3-5-3 regarding wristbands and headwear with the following exceptions. Anything worn in the hair (including headbands) must be soft and unadorned but may be any color or multi-colored and do not have to match for all teammates. Bobby pins 2” or less will also be allowed. Wristbands may be any color or multi-colored and do not have to match for all teammates, but must be moisture-absorbing material. Lance Armstrong bracelets, rubber bands, etc., are still illegal as they are not moisture-absorbing.

.

This one i don't understand. Bobby pins are not allowed due for safety reasons. So the state is going to allow them apparantly because the girls like to wear them? Or something of that nature. That makes no sense to me. Could someone explain the logic here. PLEASE!!

Philz

Tue Oct 06, 2009 02:47pm

Everything you said VINSKI is correct. They only thing different is this Ref was actually running this short league that ment nothing....no play offs, championship stats and so forth. We were going by NFHS rules but I guess he figured to just wave that one. It pissed me off and I probably won't do anymore of those games. In fact one of the coaches I called the Tech on I probably should have just ejected as he ran out on the court all the way accross the other side to get in my face and protest what he thought was a traveling that wasn't called.

Ch1town

Tue Oct 06, 2009 03:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philz (Post 629278)

In fact one of the coaches I called the Tech on I probably should have just ejected as he ran out on the court all the way accross the other side to get in my face and protest what he thought was a traveling that wasn't called.

For a traveling violation?? <Shesh> Yeah if not tossed then a stern T & a very short leash the rest of the way.

Although I could see a bang-bang & done, for coming onto the court & disrespectly addressing an official.

Vinski

Tue Oct 06, 2009 03:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philz (Post 629278)

It pissed me off and I probably won't do anymore of those games. In fact one of the coaches I called the Tech on I probably should have just ejected as he ran out on the court all the way accross the other side to get in my face and protest what he thought was a traveling that wasn't called.

I understand that it was as you call a “short” league (I think) that you were working. But in my opinion, those games can be the toughest as far as sportsmanship is concerned. You’ve got to nip it in the bud right away. If not it makes for a tough night. However, if you are “required” to take that kind of cr@p as per your partner/assigner, I would never do one of those games again, just like you mentioned, and let him know why. Letting a coach come clear across the court to get in your face is absolute garbage. Allowing that sort of activity to go un-penalized is setting up the next officials that do his games for the same sort thing. Not to mention the horrible role model he is being allowed to be in front of his kids.
Don’t go looking for trouble and try and head it off early with good game management, but don’t take that sort of thing at any level. Good luck to you.

BillyMac

Tue Oct 06, 2009 06:41pm

No Jump Balls, Cool ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch (Post 629154)

Coin toss determined who took the ball out of bounds at the division line to start the game. No center jump.

This is what I would imagine it would be like to officiate a basketball game in heaven

IowaMike

Tue Oct 06, 2009 08:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 629332)

This is what I would imagine it would be like to officiate a basketball game in heaven

Not so heavenly when you screwed up and forgot to bring a coin out with you. I hated that rule and was glad when they got rid of it. Girls were capable of starting the game with a jump ball in 49 other states, why not Iowa? I like the jump ball to start the game, I think it lends a certain degree of anticipation to the game. The old coin toss really created problems when the Iowa girls would play an Illinois team. I live right on the Iowa/Illinois border and those games were humorous, watching the Iowa girls trying to figure out how to set up for the jump ball if I was working in Illinois, or the look of disbelief on the faces of the Illinois girls when we did the coin flip in pregame in Iowa.

Back In The Saddle

Tue Oct 06, 2009 08:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaMike (Post 629351)

A coin flip to start the game? That just ain't basketball.

BillyMac

Wed Oct 07, 2009 06:40am

Then Again, Maybe Not ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 629358)

A coin flip to start the game? That just ain't basketball.

You're right. In fact, let's have a jump ball to start each quarter. And, let's have some more jump balls to determine who gets the ball in all held ball situations. And, why limit the jump ball to the center circle. Let's have jump balls at either the division line, or the foul lines, whichever is closer. And why limit jump balls to only the taller players, let's allow all players to get involved. And maybe we can have jump balls after five second closely guarded situations. Now that's real old fashioned basketball. In fact, maybe we should have jump balls after each made basket?

amusedofficial

Wed Oct 07, 2009 08:57am

Why is allowing athleticism and competition determine the first possession of the game so bad?

Back In The Saddle

Wed Oct 07, 2009 03:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 629423)

Why is allowing athleticism and competition determine the first possession of the game so bad?

You have to forgive Billy. He's never been the same since that double overtime freshman girls thriller back in 1971 where he and his partner set a new record for the most jump balls in Land of Steady Habits history in a single game. It's a form of PTSD.

BTW, I searched through his state's online game report database. Other "Unusual occurrences/items of note" he wrote, "I have just used up all the jump balls that are in me. I am unable to ever toss a jump ball again. My partner will have to do it from now on."

Truly tragic.

BillyMac

Wed Oct 07, 2009 07:12pm

Pay No Attention To That Man Behind The Curtain ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 629423)

Why is allowing athleticism and competition determine the first possession of the game so bad?

Just a pet peeve of mine. I don't go all the way back to when there were jump balls after each basket, you'll have to ask Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. about those days, but I do go back to before the alternating possession arrow, when we had jump balls to start each period, for each held ball situation, and even for closely guarded situations, at three different circles on the court, with a lot of different players involved. Back then, because we had so many jump balls, coaches actually had jump ball plays, depending on which circle, and the probability of winning, or losing the tap. These coaches knew the various rules regarding jump balls, and taught these rules to their players. Officials, again, because there were so many jump balls, knew all the jump ball rules like the back of their hand, and good officials actually spent time practicing tosses by tossing the ball up through a basket and net.

Now that we have only one jump ball a game, plus overtimes, coaches don't really know the rules, and since they don't know the rules, their players don't know the rules. And likewise with officials. In my opinion, officials, myself included, don't know the various jump ball rules as well now as they did before the advent of the alternating possession. And these rules aren't easy. Jumpers, players on the circle, players off the circle. Official ready to toss, official tosses, ball is tapped. Open spots on the circle, filled spots on the circle. Moving onto the circle, moving off of the circle. Years ago I often heard our interpreter remind us to practice tossing up through a basket, now I can't remember the last time an interpreter gave us that suggestion.

Today, it seems like the two tallest kids get to jump, a few shorter kids match up on the circle, and a few more match up off the circle. The official throws up the toss, not with the same skill that I saw many years ago, and the other official stands back and hopes that nothing "odd", or "weird", happens, that is, "odd" enough, or "weird" enough, to be recognized as a violation, and I mean immediately recognized as a violation, not after a long tap is made, and a layup is made, in other words, a violation called by hesitant official, with a slow whistle.

We went from jump balls after every basket; to jump balls to start each period, for each held ball situation, and for closely guarded situations, at three different circles on the court; to a single jump ball at the center circle to start the game and an alternating possession after that. I think that the next logical progression is to start the game with a coin toss, like they do in soccer, football, and probably a few other sports. Or let the visitors get to go on offense first, like in baseball, or softball.

Again, just my opinion. I will certainly be pleased to listen to opposing views.

BillyMac

Wed Oct 07, 2009 07:15pm

IAABO Manual Change ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 629510)

I am unable to ever toss a jump ball again. My partner will have to do it from now on.

That's why the IAABO manual allows the referee to designate the person who will toss. It doesn't have to be the referee, it could be the umpire. Is this also true in the NFHS manual?

BillyMac

Wed Oct 07, 2009 09:16pm

"Never Mind" (Emily Litella) ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaMike (Post 629351)

Not so heavenly when you screwed up and forgot to bring a coin out with you.

How difficult could it be to remember to bring a coin? Would you forget to bring a whistle? Wait a minute. I did that once. Never mind. How do I delete this post? New fangled computers!

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