[NFHS Rules] Sequence of events
 

MS Girls

Team B is whistled for a shooting foul against A.
Immediately after the shooting foul call, the second official notices Team A has 6 players on the court and calls the T.

Team B shoots two free throws and gets the ball.

Official calling the T says Team A wasn't entitled to the free throws for the shooting since they were playing with 6 players. :confused:

I do know that the T for 6 players is called when discovered, but I didn't think it nullified any other action.

I was under the impression that when you have a personal foul followed by a T, the fouls are administered in the order in which they occurred/were called. In this situation, I was under the impression Team A got to shoot the shooting foul and Team B would shoot the technical free throws and get the ball at half court.

Wasn't Entitled To The Free Throws ??? What The ..
 

This official would be wrong.

"You Are Correct Sir!"

http://cdn.holytaco.com/www/wp-conte...6/mccarson.jpg

Penalized if discovered while being violated: Having more than five team members participating simultaneously, if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Check It Out ...
 

Six players versus five players. Guess who gets the easy dunk. Good example of how fair is not always the same as the legal application of the rules:

Blazers score with six players on court : InsideHoops

When did excess of 5 become a CE? Surley the Master of Myths was joking?

Does Not Compute ???
 

ce ???

Correctable error.

48 hours are about up, guess this one has gone to a cold case...

And Please Don't Call Me Shirley ...
 

It's not a correctable error, but, as in a few other administrative-type technical fouls, there is a time limit. Please review these casebook plays:

10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T. Not a good night for this official, IMO.

That's what I was thinking. Both claims, actually. :cool:

Note that this situation is NOT for participating with 6 but for an illegal entry/substitution...something they can even be pointed out to the officials by the scorekeeper during the next dead ball. This would be a T whether there were 5 on the court or 6 on the court as a result of the illegal entry. If there are 6, you could technically have two different infractions if A6 "participates".

Dead Ball, Live Ball, Time Limit ...
 

Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.

Need A Little Help From My Friends ...
 

Maybe we could call two technicals, but would we? And if we did call two technicals, would the rules back us up? Citations please.

Thanks, I see what you're saying B Mac. I like how the rulebook words it though, penalized if discovered while being violated. That whole first dead ball after becoming live crap sounds like a CE to me. I hate CEs :(

Billy, I disagree with this. I dont' see what rule basis you have for calling it if you didn't actually see A6 participating. The rule is very clear that it must be discovered while being violated in order to be penalized. There's no wiggle room.

Especially, in your scenario, where the official doesn't notice it until he sees A6 walking off the court. You do not know positively how he got on the court nor how long he's been there. It's too late.

In some cases, we could...

05-06 Interps...

SITUATION 12: Team B has just scored to go up by three points with time running out in the fourth quarter. Player A1 inbounds the ball to A2 close to the sideline of Team B's bench. A2 releases a three-point try just prior to the horn sounding. Substitute B7 leaves the bench area, enters the court and blocks the shot. RULING: B7 shall be charged with two technical fouls and ejected. One technical foul is assessed for entering the court without permission and one for unsporting conduct. Any member of Team A may shoot the four free throws for the technical fouls. The results of these free throws will determine if the game is over or going into overtime. COMMENT: Two technical fouls must be assessed in this situation. Otherwise, the team committing the infraction would benefit from the act. (10-4-1; 10-4-2) <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Clarification ...
 

Good point. Let me clarify. What I'm trying to say is that this infraction may be called during live ball activity, or during dead ball activity, as long as the officials are sure that six players participated. The officials don't have to know how he got on the court, or how long he participated, as long as they are certain that he participated. Once the ball becomes live with five participants, it's too late to penalize. How's that?

I Hate These Situations ...
 

Camron Rust: Nice research. It's now backed up by the interpretation, we can give two technical fouls for basically one act.

But can we go back to the original situation of a sixth player coming off the bench to participate, without reporting, and being beckoned. Are we going to call one, or two technicals? 10.2.2 does say a technical foul (singular) is charged, not technical fouls (plural) are charged. To further complicate the casebook play, it doesn't say whom the technical foul is charged to, a team technical foul for six players participating, or a substitute technical foul for entering the court without being beckoned. What do you think?

I'll have to think about that, but the rule says "discovered while being violated," so I have to think that unless you actually see the participation, you cannot penalize.

Now, that's not to say I wouldn't call this if, just after a violation whistle by my partner, I count and see 6 standing on the floor and know for a fact that no one came on after his whistle.

And, while common sense would dictate that there are time constraints on how long you can hold off on penalizing, consider the following scenario:

1. A has 6 players during live play.
2. U1 whistles an OOB violation against the defense just as U2 realizes the 6th player is playing.
3. A6 sits down immediately.
4. U1 puts the ball in play.
5. U2 gets his head out of his a$$ and blows his whistle to get that 6 player T.

Common sense says one thing, but what rule says it's too late?

In normal 6 player situations, there's no way to determine which player illegally subbed, and usually that's the case. Normally, the sub was done properly, but one of the players supposed to come out didn't realize it.

If you see the illegal sub, get that player with a T. If you don't, it's a team T.

Is An Interpretation Good Enough ???
 

No rule that know of, just an interpretation: 10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

An Alternate Universe ???
 

Sounds good. Makes sense. Rational. Well thought out. Not very complicated. Are we posting on the Official Forum?

I do remember reading this once before! Now I see where you were coming from, but it only pertains to that sitch. I still think it's useless. If, for some reason we don't count our players & make eye contact prior to the ball becoming live, if 6 are still participating, we hit 'em live while being observed.
What was the purpose of adding that one with so many others unsolved mysteries...

Honestly, I believe the sound official/crew would get that when the 6th player steps on to participate.

that's for a substitution T, not for a 6 player T. Different rules, Billy. :)

We have a interp that allows us to do that, yes. However, if you look at the situation in the interp, the only way to make it "right" or "fair" is to give more than one T. I wouldn't consider this interp as license to hand out multiple T's for the same offense unless the situation was as extreme as the one in the interp. (Unless the little punk really ticked me off :D)

Just my $0.02

Agreed.

Administrative Technical Fouls Time Limits ???
 

So if during the intermission between the third and fourth period, the scorekeeper tells the officials that six players participated during the third period, several live balls, dead balls ago, then it's not too late to penalize?

Six players, player changing numbers, and participating after disqualification, are all penalized if discovered while being violated. Is the time limit the same for all three, or does the, "charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball", apply to all three?

What is the time limit for each of these three? I thought I had these administrative technical foul time limits figured out. Obviously not. Can we explore this further.

Billy, there's no time limit for penalty, but for discovery. And no, if the timer tells me 6 players were playing three live balls ago, I don't count that as being discovered in time. I know the timer is part of the officiating crew, but not on this one.

If I don't see it, it didn't happen.

If Snaqwells Doesn't See It, It Didn't Happen
 

Snaqwells: Thanks for your response. So let me see if I've got this straight. Team A, unbeknown to the officials, has six players participating during a live ball. A whistle sounds for a foul, violation, inadvertent whistle, time out, or intermission, making the ball dead, and at that time one of the officials realizes that there are six Team A players on the court during the dead ball. At that time, is it to late to discover and penalize?

Also, If Snaqwells isn't in the forest, and a tree falls ... Oh, never mind.

I will say it this way. If I count 6 immediately after the whistle and absolutely know they did not come on the court after the whistle, I might call the T. But I'd have to be 115% positive.