How would you have handled this situation?

NCAA rules in effect, no replay equipment present:

Team A is shooting the front-end of a 1 and 1 with 4.2 seconds remaining on the clock. The shot is missed and Team B rebounds the ball, goes the length of the floor and scores a lay-up. However, the clock never starts on the rebound due to malfunction.

Since neither official can definitely tell whether the try was successful before the horn should have sounded, what should you do? Remember, no replays are available.

NCAA Rule 2-12 art. 14 says, "When an obvious error by the official timer has occurred because of the failure to start or stop the game clock properly, the error may be corrected only when the referee has definite information relative to the time involved."

Does this mean, count the bucket and give Team A the ball with the same 4.2 seconds, OR, give Team B the ball out of bounds closest to the spot of the rebound with 4.2 seconds thus not counting the lay-up they should have scored?

Since my partner and I only had DEFINITE information that Team B had rebounded the ball with 4.2 seconds, we chose the latter scenario.

What would you have done???

Under no circumstances should you have had a "do-over".
The T should have had a 10 second count going, one of you 2
should have had an eye on the clock. In practical terms
even in your case the R needed to have decided time
expired, no basket, or time did not expire & take SOME time
off the clock. Never a do-over.

If there is any doubt and the clock is run by the home team (<i>not sure of the rules reference</i>):
<li>If home team had last shot, don't count it.
<li>If visiting team had last shot, count it.
<lj> or
<li>What you said, Dan. :)

mick
<hr>
The world is run by people with C- averages.

The basket's good and there is 1.2 seconds left in the game. Hey, my guess is good as anybody else's. :)

Chuck

I understand your point. But, based on what the rule says, we did not have "definite information relative to the time involved". The ball crossed half court so fast, the T's ten second count hardly ever began.

In hindsight, probably the best way to have handled it would be for the T to immediately blow the whistle upon noticing the clock never started. It would have stopped the play in the middle, but it would have avoided any "do-over" scenario beacuse the play would never have happened.

Dan - I'll agree with your saying there should not be a do-over, but would you actually be counting a ten second back court when there's only 4.some seconds left to play? Maybe this is something I should be doing for clock management skills, I dunno :eek: !

I still like Chuck's answer. If you stroll to the table with confidence and say "I know the bucket was good, three seconds ticked off - put 1.2 on the clock," I think you gain a little credibility by having some presence of mind to know what the heck was going on when the clock screws up.

I used to be in the school of thought that under ten, don't count. But, I got bit in a case like this, so now I count all the time. Plus, if they see you counting, it is easier to sell Chucks' call.

I'm gonna disagree. If you're going to claim you have no idea how much time came off & you want to go by the rule then the basket counts and the clock stays where it was at.

Quote:

In hindsight, probably the best way to have handled it would be for the T to immediately blow the whistle upon noticing the clock never started. It would have stopped the play in the middle, but it would have avoided any "do-over" scenario beacuse the play would never have happened.

Again, I'll disagree. The "best" way would be for whoever
saw the clock didn't start to start a visible count & end
the game when he got to 4.2. You can do this by rule
because you have definite knowledge.

Yes, even if there's less than 10 seconds left still count.
This way you demonstrate that you have definite knowledge.
And Chuck's answer is the right answer, and I'm sure if
Chuck says 1.2 is left then 1.2 is left! :)

As a former first year official this was a nightmare scenario for me. During the season, I got in the habit of doing a count for my own benefit, but that screwed me up when the mental clock hit 0 before the horn.
I did pick up at camp this summer (No NOT Band Camp)to have a hand count, akin to the FT but not as dramatic just in case. It saved my bacon twice at the camp and twice since, so I am sticking with it. It doesn't take that long for a glance at the clock to see if it has started and starting your count.
If this is bad advice I would appreciate any pointers from the Veterans. However, this is what I would have done.

If it was a womans college game there would be no 10 second back court count. You never know when something like this may happen so you must always be aware of the clock.

Mr. Refneck,

Obviously you have taken the first step to getting better, you came here and asked and seem to care about getting it right. Actually, I don't know you, so obviously you might be a great official already. However, forget this nonsense about stopping the play in the middle because the clock didn't start. You were obviously aware of the 4.2 seconds, or so it seems. Forget the rule (how bout that Rut) and do the right thing. If you don't know, Chuck's guess is about as good as any. But, more importantly, learn from this and next time KNOW! If you are shooting free throws in a close game with little time left you should communicate with your partner(s) AND the scoretable. I don't care who or how good they are, a friendly "i got the chop" with a wink is just good game management. And keep your own count either visibly or in your head. Not an easy thing to do when you feel you have so many other's to master, but, as anyone can tell you, the last minute of the game screwup will linger forever in their minds. Whereas, a missed travel at the four minute mark will be easily forgotten. Learn to heighten your awareness and energy at different intervals during the game and especially for that last push at the end. Sounds like pretty good advice, I think I can use some of it myself. Made a dumb foul call today late in the game, I'll be sore at myself for awhile over that one. Good luck.

One piece of advice that I will take away from this thread is always keep the count! I used to count ten seconds no matter what the time left was. Then halfway during my first year. the seasoned veteran ask me why I was doing it. He told me that it was not needed, and that it showed inexperience on my part! That always stuck in my mind! But, and thank goodness that it has never come back to bite me! I will next season count no matter what the time is again.

AK ref SE

You don't necessarily need to have a visual count when there is less than 10 seconds left. If others in your area feel it makes you look like a rookie, count mentally only. It's a good idea to know exactly how much time should be left in such situations.

So far, I like Chuck's interpretation - 3 seconds ran off the clock :D

However, if you have no idea - no time should run off, and the basket should still count. Team A will have a throw-in with 4.2 seconds left on the clock.

Couple of suggestions:
(1) This is an NCAA game, so you should have a shot clock. In this scenario, the shot clock would have been turned off, leaving the shot clock operator free to have a back-up clock or to at least keep a close eye on the timer/clock.
(2) Have the timer check the clock - perhaps he pushed a button and there was a short - his display ran, but the main clock didn't. Or, maybe he started the timeout timer - both can be used as definite information.
(3) Other than for substitutes and the like, the horn (or lack thereof) should never come as a surprise. Let's face it - plenty of timers and scorers (especially the lower the level you visit) are volunteers who got roped into the job and have little to no idea what they're doing. (Mick does bring up a good point as to home clock operator - I had a nightmarish case in IM where a player's girlfriend was the clock operator.)
(4) Kill the timer after the game. :p

I must point out that this is still illegal in some states!You should check with your state association before the start of each season for the proper interpretation in your area.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 25th, 2002 at 04:37 AM]

Illegal in most states but encouraged in some.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/cavy.gif

Just when we get an actual discussion going, it suddenly gets turned into the cartoon network.

Growing old is mandatory.
Growing up is optional.

Could be worse, ya know. Could be MTV!

http://www.stopstart.btinternet.co.uk/sm/rock_band.gif

Unfortunately,your efforts cannot result in a "Slappy".Whoever heard of giving an Oscar to Oscar?

I'll throw in my two cents and echo a couple of things said here:

Do not stop the game here to fix the clock. The team obviously had some sort of fastbreak going and you may cost them the game by stopping it.

You should always assume that what can go wrong will. You never assume the clock works, you never assume the auto horn is on, You always assume that it wont!

At the FT both you and your partner should have communicated that there was 4.2 and probably even communicated who has final shot. (With 4.2 it would be the new trail)

This may sound terrible but counting 4-3-2-1-0,where's the horn? is not rocket science. You would have definite knowledge that one) 4 plus seconds have run off, and two) that horn did not go off.

Kelvin,
You're sure right about the communication. We hafta remember there are only seconds left. (<i>We may point to our wrist, or something, as a reminder before the throw.</i>)
But, there's a good chance, depending on the side that the long pass down court takes, that the play and shot may not be well-covered by New T. New L must be alert.

"Where the heck is our Center?
Oh, yeah.
Couldn't afford him."

mick

4.2 Seconds does not just happen.
 

Usually one of the teams has called a timeout before it gets this far. Now since it is acceptable, the officials should be talking to each other and going over who has what and remind each other about paying closer attention to the clock. And ever since I used the "Precision Timing System" this year, I have been accustomed to looking at the clock to make sure it starts. So there should always be an official that is somewhat aware of if the clock starts or not, if you can. Most gyms have more than one clock, but not all of course. But these are things you might talk about during the pregame with your partners. It should never get to this point and this has not been dicussed. But things do happen. But I think that is not a good excuse in the end, because no matter what happens the officials will get blamed for the result. So you need to do what you can to avoid this situation without knowledge of the clock status.

Peace

Precise timing.
 

Tony and Rut have both used it.
I wonder if they were partners. :cool:

I agree with Rut that the officials need to come together in the dead ball before this happens and prepare for the worst. I'd include the goofy-*** scorekeeper in the discussion too. "When I drop my arm, that means start the clock."

If the timer doesn't start the clock, the refs are pretty much screwed no matter what. If you allow the game to continue with a manual count, there will be confusion because players (and coaches) will be watching the clock to see if they have time for another pass. Even at the high school level, some players will stop in confusion. IMHO, the best thing to do is blow the whistle IF you can do it in the first second or two. Once the ball is advancing towards the hoop, it's probably just best to do the handcount and prepare to deal with the ensuing mess as best you can. It "ain't gonna be pretty."

Z

Re: Precise timing.
 

You'd need referees for the referees! :eek:

Re: Re: Precise timing.
 

Nah.
The pre-game could be fun, but it'd be like "silk" on the floor. ;)

Aside from the thread's digressions, I appreciate everyone who offered an opinion.

I like Zebraman's answer the best. It's not going to be pretty, so I would be willing to take the heat for the right reason, being aware of the count either hand-counting or mentally, score the basket if it went before when time should have expired. At least you can hang your decision on the rule, cause as we all know, one team ain't going to be happy.

I'd rather take heat by adhering to the rule than by not being aware of the clock as well as I should have. That was inexscusible and believe me, won't happen again.

Again, thanks for the opinions.

Z,

You don't actually think that the timer is watching you, do you? We all know that they are watching the ball touch someone and that the chop is just cosmetic. Unfortunately this is not a tongue in cheek statement.

<i> You don't actually think that the timer is watching you, do you? We all know that they are watching the ball touch someone and that the chop is just cosmetic. Unfortunately this is not a tongue in cheek statement.</i>

Actually BigWhistle, fear is a pretty good tool at a time like this:

"OK, Mr (or Mrs.) timer, I need you to be watching me as I inbound the ball. When I drop my arm, start the clock. If we screw this up, everyone in the gym is going to be screaming at us. I can run out the gym door, but you're stuck at the table and I'm going to be pointing at <b> you </b> as <b> I </b> leave."

:-)

Z

bigwhistle,
That's a fact.
I assume that is why Z wanted to "include" the reminder to the timer.
But then, he did say scorekeeper, didn't he? :)
mick

That is not true.
 

I can only speak for myself. Tony has always sounded like a good official to me. I would love to work with him if the opportunity persented itself. I just do not agree with him all the time. But I could say that for many officials I have worked with over the years or are in the associations I belong to. ;)

Peace

Re: 4.2 Seconds does not just happen.
 

Wouldn't you be more likely to look at the clock without a PTS pack?

I've used PTS, and know it's not 100% perfect, but you do have a backup at the table manually pushing the start and stop buttons . . .

Re: Re: 4.2 Seconds does not just happen.
 

I just used the PTS as an example of how aware of the clock you become after using it. I do not think I looked at the clock every single time the ball was put in play before using the PTS.

You are right, it is not 100% perfect. In my case there was someone at the table that started the clock and stopped the clock too. Who ever got to the button first, the clock would start. And unless the mics on lanyard did not work, the clock would stop every time. That is why they invented the system I guess.

That will probably be the last time I use it for awhile, at least at the HS level. Not at least for a few years. Or if I go back to that same school that I used at twice last year. Or if I go downstate. But that might be several years away.

Peace