NF Swinging Elbows Signal

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The new signal is the exact same as the NCAA signal.Raise one arm with the elbow bent and parallel to the ground,and use a backwards movement.
P.S.-check behind before using.

In rec leagues (or for some of those 'overly demonstrative' college officials) doing the "Funky Chicken" dance is also an accepted mechanic.

Bonus points for college refs if they get the cheerleaders/dance squad to go along.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
In rec leagues (or for some of those 'overly demonstrative' college officials) doing the "Funky Chicken" dance is also an accepted mechanic.

[zebraman]

Now that's presence!

Z

[theboys]

I thought that was the mechanic for a T on a coach who squawked too much!

[williebfree]

Why would they put "excessively swinging elbow(s)/arm(s)" in the violation section? I would have it in the FOULS section.

BTW: I am still alive and kicking.

[Larks]

Originally posted by williebfree
Why would they put "excessively swinging elbow(s)/arm(s)" in the violation section? I would have it in the FOULS section.

BTW: I am still alive and kicking.

Because officials would not call it because the book said T the kid for something that often times had no contact with the defender. Thats an excessive penalty for no contact.

2 plus ball plus foul on the kid - ouch!

This way you have the option to call a foul (technical?)if there is contact but just a violation in the event of no contact and still clean it up.

I like the change myself.

Larks - Senior Rookie

[Self]

Larks if there is contact you could have a no call depending on severity, a player control foul, and intentional foul, or a flagrant intentional, but you can't have a technical..........

[Larks]

Originally posted by Self
Larks if there is contact you could have a no call depending on severity, a player control foul, and intentional foul, or a flagrant intentional, but you can't have a technical..........

Good point. Better said than I could have.

Thanks

Larks

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Self
Larks if there is contact you could have a no call depending on severity, a player control foul, and intentional foul, or a flagrant intentional, but you can't have a technical..........

A1 fouls B1.

After the mess gets up from the floor, B1 retaliates with an elbow to A1's head.

Call? Technical foul (probably a flagrant one, at that).

BTW, there's no such thing as a "flagrant intentional" foul - it has to be one or the other (and then, tacked on to either a personal or technical).

[Self]

on your extra activity like you did. Because now you have a dead ball. Now it can be technical.

As far as Flagrant Intentional I would disagree.If it is during a live ball and a player slugs another you have a intentioanl foul that is flagrant. By rule 4-19-3 an intentional foul can be personal or technical. In this case it is personal since it is a live ball. Then since you deem it flagrant, it is a flagrant intentional foul, intentional being the type of PERSONAL foul you have. So you would shoot your free throws and bring the ball in at teh spot of the foul. It is probably symantics but thats teh way I read it.

Pont being too many times people are calling a technical for live ball contact, when they should be calling intentional. That is what I was trying to get across. There can be big ramification of changing the game by calling a technical when you should be calling an intentional...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Self
As far as Flagrant Intentional I would disagree.If it is during a live ball and a player slugs another you have a intentioanl foul that is flagrant. By rule 4-19-3 an intentional foul can be personal or technical. In this case it is personal since it is a live ball. Then since you deem it flagrant, it is a flagrant intentional foul, intentional being the type of PERSONAL foul you have.[/B]

Can't agree with your semantics,Self.Intentional foul is defined in R4-19-3 and flagrant foul in R4-19-4.They're two different and separate animals-and never the twain shall meet.You gotta call it one or the other.If you look at the "summary of penalties" on P65,#4 says "two free throws if intentional OR flagrant".

[Self]

It says It may or may not be intentional. So if someone slugs during a live ball, it is a personal foul that is intentional and it is flagrant. That is the way I read it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Self
It says It may or may not be intentional. So if someone slugs during a live ball, it is a personal foul that is intentional and it is flagrant. That is the way I read it.

Rephrase it to read "it may or may not be deliberate". The intent in this line was not to bring in the defined intentional foul but to describe that a flagrant foul can occur with our without intent.

They are indeed two distinct infractions...although they share several common attributes. The penalty is identical except for the disqualification of the offender.

I agree that with the new rule change, there are no occurances of live ball contact other than fighting that can be considered a technical (or at least that I can think of).

[Self]

I agree that there are two distinct fouls Flagrant personal and intentional personal...I read to much into it.

As far as the rule change there wasn't before and there still isn't any live ball contact that is a technical. The only technical that can be called during a live ball is a non contact techincal.

If a fight breaks out during a live ball between two players the first foul is a flagrant personal, the second foul is a flagrant technical.

Technicals are only given during dead ball when it invloves contact.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Self
By rule 4-19-3 an intentional foul can be personal or technical. In this case it is personal since it is a live ball. Then since you deem it flagrant, it is a flagrant intentional foul, intentional being the type of PERSONAL foul you have.

You can have an intentional personal or a flagrant personal (or a common, PC, or airborne-shooter personal fouls) - by rule, however, only 2 of the labels can go together (common and PC).

To have an 'intentional flagrant' foul would also not work for two reasons:
(1) The flagrant foul generally includes any and all activity which warrants an intentional (i.e., someone is only convicted on Murder 1 rather than Murder and Manslaughter 3).
(2) By rule, you would shoot 4 (or 6) free throws - 2(3) for each foul - flagrant personal and intentional personal.