Back in 1990 a multi-mllion dollar law suit was filed by a female basketball official named Ms. Sandy Ortiz Devalle, of New York City. She alleged that she was not hired by the NBA for unspecified reasons. Now if you visit the National Basketball Association Hall Of Fame in Springfield, Massachusettes, there on display is the referee shirt and whistle of Ms. Devalle. These two items are on display because this female official is the first women to officiate a mens pro league game.(USBL) Now, after this lawsuit was filed by Ms. Devalle the NBA announced that they would be bringing two female officials onto there staff.Who we know today as Violet Palmer and Dee Kantner. Now was Dee Kantners firing part of a bigger cover up or did she really not develope into the official that the NBA thought she would? Also, Ms.Kantner was the past supervisor of officials for the WNBA before she came on staff of the NBA officials. She also was allowed to hold her current position while officiating in the NBA, as supervisor of womens officials in the South Eastern Conference (SEC) is this a normal practice of the NBA? or was the hiring of Dee Kantner and Violet Palmer part of a NBA cover up?

Are you a conspiracy theorist?
 

There's no such thing as the National Basketball Association Hall of Fame. The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame is in Springfield, MA.

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Now, after this lawsuit was filed by Ms. Devalle the NBA announced that they would be bringing two female officials onto there staff.Who we know today as Violet Palmer and Dee Kantner.

It was not announced that the NBA would hire to women. It was announced, when it occurred, that the NBA would hire Palmer and Kanter. It's my understanding that both had attended several NBA camps over the previous couple of years. They were both hired in 1997. Lawsuit in 1990. What's the connection?

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Now was Dee Kantners firing part of a bigger cover up or did she really not develop into the official that the NBA thought she would?

What exactly are they supposed to be covering up?

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Also, Ms.Kantner was the past supervisor of officials for the WNBA before she came on staff of the NBA officials. She also was allowed to hold her current position while officiating in the NBA, as supervisor of womens officials in the South Eastern Conference (SEC) is this a normal practice of the NBA? or was the hiring of Dee Kantner and Violet Palmer part of a NBA cover up?

Yes, this is the normal practice. Many NBA officials own businesses or have other vocations outside the NBA. Don Rutledge, the current supervisor of WNBA officials, continued to officiated NCAA basketball after he was hired, until he retired a couple of years ago.

<i> "was the hiring of Dee Kantner and Violet Palmer part of a NBA cover up?"</i>

Are you just rambling here or do you have any evidence of any kind. This is a joke that I don't get, right?

Z

Was Dee Kantner And Violet Palmers Hiring Part Of A NBA Cover Up?
 

They were hired in 1997 around the same time Ms. Devalle won her lawsuit. The NBA apealed the decision and Ms. Devalle has yet to receive a dime. Also, I made a mistake in the name of the Hall of Fame, It's The Naismith Hall Of Fame in Springfield, MA. Finally some close NBA sources also
feel the hiring of both women at the time were due to the lawsuit!

Re: Was Dee Kantner And Violet Palmers Hiring Part Of A NBA Cover Up?
 

I don't get what you're saying here. Granted, the hirings might have been due to the lawsuit, these things happen. But where do you see a coverup? If it's true that she's ranked 59th by the coaches evaluations I don't see how she can argue she was pushed out without cause. Someone's gotta be on the bottom...it sux but it's life.

Response
 

Maybe coverup is the wrong word. How about Smoke Screen?

I really have to disagree with people that believe that the NBA is covering something up. I do not believe that the NBA is covering up anything. It has been widely spread for a longtime that Violet Palmer is more respected then Ms. Katner was as an official.
As we all know in this business of officiating, you do not make the grade, you do not keep your job for the following season. I do not think that Ms. Katner's dismissal is because of her other obligations in the officiating business.
I would believe the only reason she was let go is because she did not meet the NBA's standards.

Yeah Right!
 

I was told by one of her supervisors that"She thinks she is hot stuff, and she can't blow for ****!

I hate that these two women may have only been hired to settle a lawsuit, rather than on their merits. If so, it is a large hurdle they will continually have to address.

Maybe I am young and foolish, but it disapoints me that we still do not live in a society where people are measured in their job by their relative merits rather than their gender.

If she did the job and she is being rolled, she should take every avenue available for recourse. However, if she was dismissed because she failed to meet the standard (however vague, random or subjective it may be) that all of the officials were measured against, then that should be the end of the story. Either the job can be done or it can't, that should be the yardstick.

I don't think anyone is saying they didn't deserve the chance (I'm not, that's for sure), it's just that the lawsuit made the nba realize it was time to move into the '90s and they found 2 good candidates to be first. Apparently 1 didn't grow as expected...

Re: Was Dee Kantner And Violet Palmers Hiring Part Of A NBA Cover Up?
 

Seven years to win a lawsuit? Wow! Dee and Violet were hired in 1997, but they both worked pre-season games in 1996. But they were not hired in 1996.

So, you're saying they shouldn't have been hired at all, that they NBA only did it to make themselves look good?

BTW, a WebFerret search for Ms. Devalle found absolutely nothing. WebFerret will even find my name on the Internet. Evidently, she didn't make much of an impression.

For You're Information
 

Sandy was one of the best female officials to come out of New York City. She was working mens pro leagues in New York before any women. She is currently an AD at a high school in New York City and the boys varsity coach. There are officials in the NBA today that will tell you off the record that she was no joke, when it came to officiating. I also had the pleasure to meet her and watch her work. She is truly a pioneer in women officiating mens basketball!

Re: For YOUR Information
 

I'm sure she was. I just don't think she has as strong of an impact on the NBA as you seem to believe. JMHO. Sorry, didn't mean to offend.

Wait Until The Truth Comes Out!
 

I believe that Dee Kantner is an excellent official and the NBA has a rating system which gives them the option of removing officials from there roster if they have a poor rating. I know that sandy's lawsuit played a significant part in the NBA signing Violet and Dee. Sandy was asked to settle out of court and she declined, she felt that she was getting screwed by the NBA again.As of today the legal battle continues and I am waitng to see how this lawsuit finally plays out. I bet the only reason why the NBA allowed her to keep her SEC job was because they had planed on leaving her with something!

We all have mentors and offficials we look up to as we grow and develop, and we attach a great bond to that relationship.

I don't think anyone on this board would belittle or downplay any other officials impact to the game, but it needs to be placed in context. It sounds like she was a pioneer (how many women coach boys Varsity?), but I hope you don't over state her contributions to the NBA game because you know her. Did her lawsuit push the NBA along? Maybe, but that is a reach. Dee and Violet earned their shot.

Trust me, politics were probably invovled, but the NBA is a <b>business</b>. If they could not keep up, they would not have been there in the first place. We should pat them on the back for getting there on their skills, not based on an unrelated lawsuit filed years before they started.

The cold, hard facts may be that this Sandy, just was not good enough for the NBA. I know there are something like 8000 Basketball officals here in OH. Multiplied by 50, would be 400000 officials across the country. That does not include all of the NCAA guys who are not carded in any states. If there are only 59 NBA refs... you do the math, the number is too small. You have a better chance making it as a player. Only the elite of the elite get their NBA stipes, I think you need to separate fact from emotion in this case.

Okay Love2Ref, let's say that Dee and Violet got their jobs because of Sandy's lawsuit. Does that mean Dee shouldn't be fired if she can't pull her weight as an official?

Forgive me, but I just don't see what anything Sandy did has to do with Dee's release. Maybe you should have posted this when they were hired.

I would never say Dee and Violet Couldn't Officiate!
 

The point that I am trying to make here is that, Sandy had to challenge the NBA in order for them to "wake up and smell the coffee." If this lawsuit was never filed no one would have even considered bringing these two women officials into the league so soon. You can beleive what you want, but the truth of the matter is, that I have discussed this with a couple of NBA officials, and one Supervisor Of Officials and they don't have to lie! Don't be suprised if Dee Kantner takes legal action and Sadra Otiz Devalle is called to testify!

I have to BKBallRef Love2ref is this one. You should voiced your opinion when Dee and Violet were hired, not now. But as the old saying goes, "better late then never" in voicing your opinion.

Cover up, smoke screen or whatever you want to call it...
 

Does anybody think that if Mark Davis or any other male referee was released by the NBA we'd be having this conversation?

I'm sure Dee is a good offical, she must of been to be working at that level of ball. Let's face it though, if you're supervisor's don't think you're up to the job then they'll show you the door. I'm sorry that Dee lost her job in the NBA, but I really cannot believe Rush and Jackson would release an official due to gender. If in the powers-that-be's opinion she wasn't up for the job, then yes she should have been released.

I'm all for gender equality, whether it be in the Fire Department, Military or the NBA but the bottom line is, you've got to be able to do the job. Obviously in the eyes of Mr. Rush and Mr. Jackson, Dee wasn't.

Who metioned Stu Jackson or Ed Rush?
 

Who said anything about Rush or Jackson, what are you doing, just making up names as you go along! You never know who made the evaluations that damaged her!

Re: Who metioned Stu Jackson or Ed Rush?
 

Nobody is making up names, Love2, and you know it; and nobody said that Ed Rush or Stu Jackson made the damaging evaluations. But Jackson is the Senior Vice President of Basketball Operations and Rush is the Director of Officiating. So it stands to reason that the final decision to release Kantner had to go through at least one of them, doesn't it? That was Ian's (ripian's) only point. Can you really disagree with it?

Love2, what are you so worked up about? Nobody is attacking you, or attacking Dee Kantner. I'm not asking as a criticism; I'm genuinely baffled. She got low ratings and got dropped. It happens every season to lots of officials at lots of different levels. Why does this particular decision bother you so much?

Chuck

Ms. DeValle would have been the first Latin American women to officiate in the NBA!
 

She officiated in the NBA for 5 seasons, you really beieve if she was not cutting it she would have been kept on staff that long. I don't feel sorry for Dee Kantner because she will still be able to say she made it to the top. I feel sorry for Sandra Ortiz Devalle, because she could have been the first latin american women to officiate in the NBA. Maybe it dosen't sound like a big deal to you, but it would have been very special.And she never got her chance to live out her dream because the NBA was not ready to let a women work in there league!

Re: Ms. DeValle would have been the first Latin American women to officiate in the NBA!
 

Maybe, just maybe, she wasn't ready to work the NBA. I don't know, I never heard of her; I never saw her work. But working the USBL doesn't have anything to do with working the NBA. I worked the USBL this past season, and there's NO WAY I would consider myself ready to work the NBA. There's just no comparison. Additionally, if she was trying to make it before the NBA went to 3-man, then it would've virtually impossible break in. There were even fewer slots available then than there are now. And I'm sure you know this, but there's no guarantee in life that says everybody gets to live out his or her dream.

Just something to think about.

Re: Who metioned Stu Jackson or Ed Rush?
 

You obviously need to research this further.

Coaches evaluations account for 40% of an official's ranking.
Observers evaluations account for 10% of an official's ranking.
Mr. Jackson and Mr. Rush account for 50% of an official's ranking.

You don't think their 50% had something to do with her getting canned?

Maybe this is an injustice. I know for a fact that Ms. Devalle could officiate on this level if given the opportunity. There was definately pressure on the NBA to improve there image, and allow women the opportunity to officiate in there league. As far as Dee Kantner's evaluation is concerned, if the NBA was not satisfied with her developement then they have every right to drop her. But was she really expected to cut it? or was she being played all along? I have seen Dee Kantner work and she was just as good as some of the veteran officials in the league. And she ran the floor better than some of the veteran officials. Her apearance was good, she has to be one of the best conditioned officials male or female that I have seen in many years. The sad thing about the officiating business in the NBA is this "code of silence" that seems to be demanded of there officials. Who brought Dee Kantner into the league? Was this observer/recruiter instructed to look for some women officials to bring into the league. One thing for sure women officials have been discriminated by the NBA in the past, and Sandra Ortiz DeValle addressed this issue. So the next time you watch Violet Palmer working an NBA game think of how one women fought for women officials to have the opportunity to referee in the NBA!

One last thought before I go.
 

Now, let's look at this statement. You know this for a fact? You've seen her officiate in NBA camps or in NBA preseason games? You've been through the NBA wars and know exactly what it takes to officiate in the NBA? You understand their all their philosophies, mechanics, and rules? With all due respect, I don't believe you can answer yes to any of those questions. Your statement is your opinion, it is not a fact. For you to make such a statement as "fact," is no different than the average fan sitting in the stands and saying that Chuck Elias or Mark Padgett is a great official or that he stinks. The fan isn't qualified to make that statement, and neither are you concerning Ms. Devalle.

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The sad thing about the officiating business in the NBA is this "code of silence" that seems to be demanded of there officials.

What code of silence is that? :confused:

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Who brought Dee Kantner into the league? Was this observer/recruiter instructed to look for some women officials to bring into the league.

That would be Rod Thorn and Darrell Garrettson, both of whom no longer work for the NBA. What does it matter whether they were instructed to bring women into the league or not? First, you complain about Ms. Devalle not being hired, then you complain about Ms. Kantner and Ms. Palmer being hired. I'm sorry but I don't understand your argument.

Could Ms. Devalle officiate in the NBA?

We'll never know, will we?

Some one needs to put this thread out of its misery.

Dude is lathered up, emotional, and this post is going no where.

Let's talk more about airball travels.....

Can Sandra Ortiz De Valle Officiate In The NBA?
 

For you're information the NBA has a staff of three persons who's sole job is to "find diamonds in the rough" And there are three NBA officials that have told me that she deserved the opportunity to officiate in the league. Then there is one retired NBA official that said Ms. Devalle was the best women official that he has ever worked with, and he also feels that she got jerked. This is not about getting the last word, because you can have it. What it's about is being discriminated, that maybe something you have been lucky to not have to expierence. And if you have been discriminated because of race, gender or whatever then you should remember the pain.

How long have you officiated?

If you want to call it discrimination, then so be it, but officials get assignments becasue of who they know, or they have done it a 1000 years, and better officials get passed over every year. Like anything, sometimes it is all about being in the right place at the right time or, who you know. It is not always discrimination, just how the biz works.

Let's jump into your sugar coated dream world and agree the NBA did not hire her simply becasue she was a woman. Do you think the NBA would hire her becasue they lost a court case? Never, they would find someone else with comparable skills to hire. Why? The person who filed the suit has lost all credability. That person could never work the league or have any respect, because everyone there would know she did not make it in through the eval process, but a court case. She would have been set up to fail right from the start. If she did open the door, good for her, but she could have never walked through it, the players and coaches would have never accepted her.

You have to make it on your merits, it seems unfair to people becasue this biz is so subjective, but we all know that going in. Life is not fair, that is why I love lemonade.

How Many Years Have I Officiated?
 

I have officiated long enough to see the people who "move up" the ladder because of the color of there skin, and those who do not move because of the color of there skin. I just think it sucks when you can't move up because of the color of your skin, and you are latin american. Have you ever had to deal with this sort of thing?

It sounds as if you have been discriminated against, and for that I am truly sorry. I think that you may be too close to this situation emotionally to look at it objectively. While it seems that you do know many people within the NBA organization, it is still just rumor and heresay. In a perfect world, we would be judged strictly on skills; however, we don't and we are not. People are discriminated against everyday for reasons other than gender, race or sexual orientation. Many times, it is what we refer to as politics, which may be what happened to Kantner because of who hired her or enemies that she made. Palmer, as I understand it, is still there and still doing well.

Just as no one deserves to be fired for reasons other than nonperformance, no one deserves a shot at the NBA or to stay at that level if their perfomance is not up to level. There is no shame in being a great official in leagues other than the NBA. Some people can make it and some don't. Regardless, we should presume innocence until guilt is proven. It is a courtesy I try to extend, because I expect the same in return.

Maybe this is not the most politically correct thing to bring up, but I do remember Ms. Ortiz DeValle's court case against the NBA when it was originally filed. It made the papers. Remember that the NBA is very image conscience. All of the officials they hire now fit a certain body type--broad shoulders, small waist, tight butt, etc.--very athletic look (BTW, Ms. Katner and Ms. Pamer fit this "look"). Ms. Ortiz DeValle, however, did not meet this at all. I remember seeing her photo (in USBL uniform in the newspaper) and thinking that she must be kidding herself if she thought the NBA would be serious about her, based on physical appearance only.

Now, I don't know a thing about Ms. Ortiz DeValle personally or about her abilities as an official (although I do beleive that she was involved in a very serious accident and her officiating days are now over), but there is more to officiating, than just what calls you do/don't make. I can tell you for a fact that most D1 conferences are looking for officials with the same type of "look" as the NBA for the new officials that they hire. This may never be writtne or published, but believe me it is an issue that the assignors look at. So even if you are a great game official, you may never get hired based on physical appearance alone.

So, we've finally gotten to it. I can appreciate that and I'm sure it's well founded. It sucks when you can't move up because of any type of discrimination. Neither Latin Americans nor any other group of people have a monopoly on discrimination. I'm sure you've seen it and perhaps even experienced. That's unfortunate.

But don't confuse all these other issues in the process of expressing that opinion. Say what you mean and mean what you say. And have the facts to back it up. Do that and you won't get any grief here.

BTW, Dee Kantner was no diamond in the rough. She worked numerous Final Fours and NCAA Championship games before the NBA hired her, as did Violet Palmer. Thorn and Garrettson hired them, make no mistake about it.

I agree with Brian. Let's put this thing out of it's misery. :)

PS- You never did explain the code of silence.

Let It Rest!
 

Bktballref, and Stripes you guys are allright. you helped me take another look at this matter, and I hope you guys have also taken another look. Stripes, Sandy may not have had the NBA look, but neither does everyone officiating in the league. Also Bktballref, the term "diamond in the rough" was given to me by one of the persons who gets "paid" handsomely to travel around the country for the NBA and look for new officials.And as far as a "code of silence" is concerned the NBA has very strick rules for there officials. There are some things that are forbidden and unless one of these officials shares this information with you, you mwy never know.Trust me on this one though, it does exist!

Love2ref4Ever you have not given any evidence that anything other than a justified dismissal took place here. As others have said, the NBA is hugely image conscious and they would not even consider firing one of their female refs unless they felt that it was completely justified.

I am sorry if you feel as if you have been unfairly treated in your reffing career due to your skin color. That is not right. In my local ref association, we have made it a point to give minorities and women every possible advantage. If anything, we have moved them up too quickly on occasion. We try to avoid doing that as well because we don't want to set them up for failure.

If the NBA is guilty of some type of revenge or discrimination, I'm sure everyone on this discussion board would be angry. However, all you have done is "stir the pot" with no evidence to back up your claims.

Z

Re: Let It Rest!
 

The key words in my post were "All of the officials they hire now". Certainly there are officials on the staff who do not fit the criteria, but that cannot be said of the new officials.

I am not sure what you want me to take another look at. As far as I am concerned, the NBA, as a business, should be able to hire the most qualified individuals to work for them without regards to any outside source giving them a standard or criteria to uphold. Business should be able to decide for itself what is best for its long term (and short term) concern. The NBA has way too much money at stake to make a string of poor business decisons--that includes staffing. They will hire or fire in their best interest. As I have no desire to work professional basketball, it doesn't affect me in any form.

Re: Let It Rest!
 

Ain't that the truth! Is there an uglier official anywhere than Blane Riechelt? :D


You are correct, there most certainly are. But those people are looking in places that the NCAA would nevcer look, like YMCA leagues, recleagues, etc. My point is that Violet and Dee were not found by an NBA scout. They grew within the NCAA system and gained from working NCAA. Everyone who knew women's college officiating in the 90's, knew who Violet and Dee were.

Later!

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jul 18th, 2002 at 03:16 PM]

For The Record
 

Yes I have been discriminated before on and off the court and it's not a very nice feeling. Dee was recommended by another NBA official even though she was having a great collegiate career. And through recommendations there are three current NBA officials who are in the league beacause they were recommended. There is one current NBA Official who has never officiated a college basketball game, and got his break because of a recommendation.

Re: For The Record
 

"Even though"? How about "because"? Sometimes I just don't understand where you're coming from, Love2.

Chuck

What I Am Trying To Say Is..........
 

Many NBA officials are hand picked, and even if you are a good collegiate official you still need to have someone who speak on your behalf. Like an official who is already in the league.