Hi - I have 2 questions - both of these are prompted by my students. One I can't explain, and the other, I am just checking to see if my explanation is right. (I am a PIAA Basketball official)

1) If a player places the ball on the floor, prior to starting a dribble, and rolls the ball around with his hand, is this some kind of violation or not? I don't quite know what to tell them. Then what happens if they pick up the ball? Can they start a dribble at this point? What about if the situation had them stopping a dribble, putting the ball down, and rolling it around?

2) This one seems a little more cut and dried. A1 goes up for a layup. The ball hits the front of the backboard, and skips away, still heading up and toward the basket. B1 bats the ball, outside of the imaginary cylinder, while the ball is still on its upward ascent. The kids are saying that is considered goaltending, because the ball hit the backboard. I told them that the rule for goaltending only says "on its downward descent, outside the imaginary cylinder above the rim" - they don't believe me! Can I get a confirmation on this one (or a slap on the wrist if I'm wrong, which I don't think I am)?

Thank you very much!

#2 is not GT, you have it right. Note for BI the ball only
needs to be in the cylinder above the basket, on it's way
up or down, and does not have to be a shot.

#2 is not GT, you have it right. Note for BI the ball only
needs to be in the cylinder above the basket, on it's way
up or down, and does not have to be a shot. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks - I knew it wasn't BI - trying to explain that one to high school kids, who don't even know what BI is and just know the media definition of goaltending is fun enough!

Anyone have ideas on #1?

4-15-4 Note 3
It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

Ok, but what if they place it on the floor, and start walking, pushing or rolling the ball along the floor? That is the circumstance I'm referring to.

#1 looks bad, but is legal.

The rule Dev cited is the closest thing to this sitch, but it is ok to do.

Remember, if the book does not say you can't, then you can.

Play #1 is not covered in the rule book or case book. Perhaps that's why Dan wouldn't touch it! :D

The only thing in the rule book about rolling the ball is in 4-31 which says that it's a pass to roll the ball to another player. Obviously, in your play, another player is not involved. I would consider the ball to be loose, with no player control. Although it's obvious that the player is controlling the ball, rolling the ball on the floor does not meet the definition of player control.

BTW, I've never seen it happen. I would try to focus the kids on plays they're more likely to see. ;)

Didn't touch what? ;)

I've never seen this either but if I did I would simply
kick the ball into the stands. This is very unusual but I
can get away with it because I have great court presence...

:eek:

#1. Ugly but legal.

#2. Is not BI or GT. This is a legal play under NCAA and FIBA. In the Pro game however this is a violation.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I've never seen this either but if I did I would simply
kick the ball into the stands. This is very unusual but I
can get away with it because I have great court presence...

[/B][/QUOTE]Sure glad I wasn't drinking a coffee when I read that! :D

I've never seen this either but if I did I would simply
kick the ball into the stands. This is very unusual but I
can get away with it because I have great court presence...

[/B][/QUOTE]Sure glad I wasn't drinking a coffee when I read that! :D [/B][/QUOTE]

:D

# 1 is legal. It is a pass according to the rule book definition. Therefore, there is still team control but not player control. It is the same as the player throwing the ball for one bounce and then catching it, only now it is called a dribble. If the player now dribbles, it is a violation. So in the play described I would consider the play was legal but if the player then dribbled, or repeated the rolling the ball one the floor, it would also be a violation, i.e. a double dribble.

Here we go again!I could see this coming.

Yep! It's on now!!
 

I'm sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever. First, you say it's a pass, then you say it's the same as a dribble. You said there's no player control, but there is PC during a dribble. The definition of a pass is throwing or rolling the ball to a teammate. How is rolling the ball to yourself a pass?

So which is it, a pass, or a dribble?

Me too. That's why I stayed out :)

You guys are no fun at all! :)

Alright then,Mr. Smartypants...
1)Isn't it a dribble when the player first placed the ball on the floor and let it go?
2)Each time that the player pushes the ball,isn't that considered a separate dribble then?
3)If he lifts his pivot foot and puts it back down while he's pushing the ball,isn't he travelling?
4)Isn't there a Law of Physics that states the ball must come to rest in his hand before each time that he pushes it on the floor i.e.there must be player control each time?

Did I cover them all,or can you think of any others? :D

Sorry,Chuck! The debbil made me do it!

When you throw the ball in the air, it is a pass. When you throw the ball in the air, move your pivot foot to run after it and catch it, it is a traveling violation.

When you throw the ball, and the ball bounces on the floor, it is a pass. But if you throw the ball and it bounces on the floor and you go and catch it, it is a dribble.

If the player now dribbles the ball, it is a double dribble violation.

Anyone disagree with the above statements?

Just having fun with ya, Finref!
 

No, I disagree. When you throw the ball into the air and it's caught by a teammate, it's a pass. 4-31

Quote:

When you throw the ball in the air, move your pivot foot to run after it and catch it, it is a traveling violation.

Agreed. But there's nothing in the original play to indicate that's what happened, now is there?

Quote:

When you throw the ball, and the ball bounces on the floor, it is a pass. But if you throw the ball and it bounces on the floor and you go and catch it, it is a dribble.

Agreed. But that's not what happened, is it?

Quote:

If the player now dribbles the ball, it is a double dribble violation.

Agreed. But once again, that's not what happened, is it?

BTW, you didn't answer my questions.

How is rolling the ball to yourself a pass?

Is rolling the ball on the floor to yourself a pass or a dribble? You're making arguments for both. Which is it?

:)

No. A dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor. The rule doesn't say anything about rolling it.

Quote:

2)Each time that the player pushes the ball,isn't that considered a separate dribble then?

No. The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.
b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.
c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.
d. An opponent bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) the ball.
e. The ball becomes dead.

Touching the ball again doesn't meet any of those requirements.

Quote:

3)If he lifts his pivot foot and puts it back down while he's pushing the ball,isn't he travelling?

I thought you said he was dribbling. How can he travel if he's dribbling?

Quote:

4)Isn't there a Law of Physics that states the ball must come to rest in his hand before each time that he pushes it on the floor i.e.there must be player control each time?

Huh? If the ball comes to rest each time a player dribbles, then he's palmed the ball! Oh brother!! :D

Sign me, the Debbil's Advocate! :)

Hmmph! You take the fun out of everything! :mad:

Nah! Wait 'til Rut shows up! :D

Geeze,you guys from Tobacco Road sure got a mean streak in ya! :D

how about this, treat it the same as if the player was tossing the ball from hand to hand while standing.

Is that what they do in GA? :)

I have no clue I am just guessing here>