last to touch - first to touch

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

First of all, you handled the situation perfectly. You made the correct call, and you did not argue with the clinician even when you knew you were right...stuff happens and we have to be resilient and learn to bounce back. Hopefully you did not stew about it the rest of the game and let it affect you.

Secondly - was this a local HS camp (local to you)? If so, do you know this clinician or have any kind of way to contact him? If so, maybe contact him and ask the question - pose it as I really want to learn type of question. Chances are he will give a big "oops" you were right. After all, he's only human and we all make mistakes.

But kudos on handling it the way you did.

I have to disagree.

I detest @ss-kissing, and I see no valid reason why someone in a position of power or supervisory role should be agreed with when one KNOWS that such a person is dead wrong.

While acting in this way may allow the individual official to advance, this is exactly the kind of stuff that prevents officiating in general from advancing.

This isn't the military.

[rsl]

By the time I posted here, I had checked the rule book and knew the answer
and knew I was right.

Standing in front of the evaluator, I wasn't so sure. I think the best advice
to a young official is not to argue with an evaluator. Most of the time the
more senior official is right, and you lose valuable mentoring time with your
nose in the rule book. Not to mention you may hurt your career.

I am only a second year official, but early on I decided never to trust anyone
on a rule interpretation. I always look it up myself to confirm later. The rule
book is the only ultimate authority (except for this forum of course ).

Originally Posted by rsl

The rule book is the only ultimate authority (except for this forum of course ).

Hey! Brownnosing is not tolerated here! ummm, maybe just a wee bit!

[rsox34]

...Nobody should allow you to kick a rule like this evaluator wanted you to.
You and your crew should strive to get it right. I bet you'll never again have a problem with this type of play.

Originally Posted by rsl

By the time I posted here, I had checked the rule book and knew the answer
and knew I was right.

Standing in front of the evaluator, I wasn't so sure. I think the best advice
to a young official is not to argue with an evaluator. Most of the time the
more senior official is right, and you lose valuable mentoring time with your
nose in the rule book. Not to mention you may hurt your career.

I am only a second year official, but early on I decided never to trust anyone
on a rule interpretation. I always look it up myself to confirm later. The rule
book is the only ultimate authority (except for this forum of course ).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I have to disagree.

I detest @ss-kissing, and I see no valid reason why someone in a position of power or supervisory role should be agreed with when one KNOWS that such a person is dead wrong.

While acting in this way may allow the individual official to advance, this is exactly the kind of stuff that prevents officiating in general from advancing.

This isn't the military.

I disagree. An official who stunts his own advancement out of principal in a situation like this isn't going to help officiating advance if he's stuck at the bottom. Frankly, it's going to take people who, for the most part, have played the game even though they think it's crap.

No, it's not the military; it's politics.

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I have to disagree.

I detest @ss-kissing, and I see no valid reason why someone in a position of power or supervisory role should be agreed with when one KNOWS that such a person is dead wrong.

While acting in this way may allow the individual official to advance, this is exactly the kind of stuff that prevents officiating in general from advancing.

This isn't the military.

@ss kissing? Really? How in the world would you consider a measured appropriate response in this sitaution @ss kissing? The alternative is to stand on principle, disagree with the evaluator, and possibly get labeled as argumentative or worse.

You may make your point and prove the evaluator wrong. He gets pi$$ed, the camper gets dinged or worse. And yet you see this as a potential advancement of officiating? This would be a case of winning a battle and blowing yourself up in the process. I couldn't disagree more.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

@ss kissing? Really? How in the world would you consider a measured appropriate response in this sitaution @ss kissing? The alternative is to stand on principle, disagree with the evaluator, and possibly get labeled as argumentative or worse.

You may make your point and prove the evaluator wrong. He gets pi$$ed, the camper gets dinged or worse. And yet you see this as a potential advancement of officiating? This would be a case of winning a battle and blowing yourself up in the process. I couldn't disagree more.

Exactly...some people would argue that they were right and the evaluator was wrong, regardless of the consequences to them or their career. There are better ways to handle things than the in your face "you are wrong and I am right" attitude. But, again, some people don't get that and never will. For a second year official, rsl handled this in a remarkably mature manner.

[Hugh Refner]

I worked a summer camp about 5 years ago in which I found out later that the 4 evaluators who were there intentionally questioned correct rule interps with some of the newer officials just to see if they would stand up for their beliefs. Only one (out of four) did and on the final day of camp, he was praised for "sticking to his guns when he knew he was right".

I'm not saying they came down hard on the other guys, they just wanted to make the point that if you are sure you have the rule right, you should tell your partner and offer to look it up.

[ILMalti]

A few points are missing in your description

Where were B1 and A2 when they touched the ball?
When the ball was knocked out of A1 possesion did it touch the centre line or backcourt.

Cannot answer the question unless the above is known

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

A few points are missing in your description

Where were B1 and A2 when they touched the ball?
When the ball was knocked out of A1 possesion did it touch the centre line or backcourt.

Cannot answer the question unless the above is known

Not sure if FIBA is different, but the center line is the backcourt.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not sure if FIBA is different, but the center line is the backcourt.

Yes you are right they are one and the same, I really was trying to get an understanding of the position of B1 and the ball after B1 "knocks the ball"

At times the ball/feet on the line is/are overlooked, hence the question.

Regardless, i believe the answers are important to determine the call. No?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rsl

At a high school camp with NFHS rules.

A1 has control of the ball in the frontcourt. B1 knocks the
ball loose. A2 knocks the ball so B1 can't grab it, then chases
it down in back court.

I whistle back court violation. First one I have ever called on
the "last to touch - first to touch" rule.

Coach yells at me. At next time out, D2 evaluator tells me I
messed up because team control ended on B1's tap. I say
"yes sir" to the evaluator and smile.

4-12-3 says team control continues until opponent secures control.
9-9-1 says this is backcourt violation

What good is being right if nobody knows?
Or, did I kick this call and I am still clueless?

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Yes you are right they are one and the same, I really was trying to get an understanding of the position of B1 and the ball after B1 "knocks the ball"

At times the ball/feet on the line is/are overlooked, hence the question.

Regardless, i believe the answers are important to determine the call. No?

Based on the OP, "A2 knocks the ball so B1 can't grab it, then chases
it down in back court." This tells me, intuitively, that they are both starting from the front court. Whether the ball bounces on the line or completely in the BC isn't relevant, I don't think. I would agree that A2 and B1's positioning is important, but I think it's safely implied from the OP that they were both in the FC.