Finally got a direct T the other night. Here's the sitch. Girls 8th grade summer travel league, come out of halftime with opponents getting the ball. We have a 4 point lead. Opponents put six players on the court. We yell to the ref administering the throw-in, he looks at us, hands the ball over, and they inbound and score within about ten seconds. The entire time we are yelling to both refs that there are six players on the court. Both refs at one point or another make eye contact, and continue on with play. To be more clear, this is a quiet gym (as gyms go) and we have not directed a single comment to the officials all night (so we have not trained them to ignore us :) ).

As we inbound, the opposing coach actually gets his players attention and gets one to come over to the sideline (at this point, everyone except the refs is aware of what is going on). As she steps off the court, I finally get my point across to the trail and he stops play. He assesses a team tech to my opponents and a direct to me for being on the court. I look down and my feet are both within a foot of the sideline, but yes, on the court directly in front of my bench (I was not running across the court like a lunatic). I felt it was an attempt to save face. The opposing coach is a friend and he is just dying laughing, because he knows he got away with one.

End result - they get a basket (not a correctable error), we get ball but lose arrow, and nobody shoots the FTs because of the simultaneous Ts. So yeah, we coaches have those nights too.

IMO, bad officiating. They ding you on a technicality while you point out THEIR error. A friendly reminder to get back into the box would have been sufficient.

I think we will all agree that this was not handled well and it smells of an inexperienced pair of officials. It takes some time to get a sense of when to ignore the yelling from the bench/crowd and when something actually needs to be heard. Good experienced officials would never have put the ball in play to start with. Thanks for having the patience to not completely degrade these newer officials, they need to get some valuable experience somewhere. All in all I would say you may have gotten lucky. Sounds to me like by the time the official realized the other team had gotten the sixth off the court, at which time it is too late to penalize. They could have just given you the direct technical and not penalized the other team. Now, that would have been a good story.

<b>nobody shoots the FTs because of the simultaneous Ts</b>

I don't have my rule books with me, but this doesn't seem correct. Simultaneious T's on the coaches--especially when one is administrative? Shouldn't the T's have been shot?

I had the same nagging thought, bard. Just looked up the definition for simultaneous technicals: "...a situation in which there is a technical foul by both teams which occurs at approximately the same time, but are not committed by opponents against each other." In the note it says no free throws and go to the arrow. Sounds like it fits here to me.

To be clear, he called both Ts at the same time, so the Ts were administered by the book.

You are right stripes, but the only problem with what you said is that we do not necessrily know the kind of official that was working this game. Many states also have made a bigger issue than needed over the "Coaching Box" rule and have basically threatened officials if they do not give Ts for this action. We must also note that this was an 8th Grade Travelling game too. That might have to do with the kind of official working the game. Might simply be inexperience.

Peace

True enough, but you would hope that officials at this level would have common sense. I teach the class for the new officials in my local association and we talk about common sense and doing what is right--at the very begining of the instruction. That is still no guarantee...:rolleyes:

We played in a national qualifier this spring - YBOA 14U. In our first game, one of the two officials was apparently pretty new. Prior to the game, and at quarter breaks he spent a lot of time receiving advice from the other official. At times he looked a little unsure of himself.

With about 20 seconds to go in the game, and us down by one, we had the ball, dribbling up the sideline. The player with the dribble was bumped out of bounds by the defender. (Really, he was.) The "new" official blows his whistle, and gives the other team the ball. I looked at the second official, made some sort of grunting howler monkey noise, and threw my hands up in the air. He ignored me, thank goodness.

We ended up losing by one, of course. Oh, we got the ball back - with six seconds left, and promptly threw it out of bounds.

Except for the one call, I thought the officials did a good job, and worked well as a team. The "new" official was obviously giving it his best. So, after the game, I thanked them for their efforts.

But, the point of this story is this...I was talking to the player later that evening, and the "bumped" play came up. He told me, that after the game, one of the officials came up to him, and told him he was sorry, that they had kicked the call.

I asked the player if that made him mad. He said no, that it actually made him feel a little better. I don't how you officials feel about "true confessions", I guess it can be a dangerous road, but I thought it was pretty magnanimous myself.

I've done the "true confessions" thing once. Never again. I got chewed on again only worse. I will not put myself and a player or coach in that kind of spot again.

Never seen a sign that the "box" has been a point of emphasis in Maryland - most officials a extremely liberal as long as you are off their backs. As for inexperience, I don't know how long some officials get to carry that tag. Some of the refs we get have been doing middle school travel ball as long as I have. I know I have learned a lot and changed a lot in how I prepare a team and manage games, while I watch them and they seem to have the same game they had five years ago.

It really seems a shame, because most of these guys genuinely seem to like doing the game and like working with the players, but they either haven't taken the right steps to improve or just don't have the knack for reffing. While many of you have done a lot of work to get where you are, as the posts on this board make clear, I think that there are those who are naturally suited to his work and those for whom it will always be a struggle, regardless of what they put into it or how long they ref.

The rule changed.
 

There was not a POE, there was a rule change last year with the coaching box. But of course that depended on your state. Illinois always (at least for as long as I can remember or have been officiating) had the 6 foot box until last year when they expanded it. And the big deal was to keep coaches in the box at all times no matter what when it was expanded last year. Well of course they threatened to take it away all together if officials did not enforce it strictly. And once the season started, all that went completely out the window. I did not see one T for a coach out of the box all year. And the State Interpreters basically told us to give Ts if the coach had a foot outside the box, no matter what. I guess that shows how much influence they had on that one.

Peace

Yes, it was a POE last year.
 

<B>2001-02 POINTS OF EMPHASIS</B>

1. Bench Decorum

A. <B><U>Coaching Box</b></U> – With rules permission to increase the size of the optional coaching box, the committee again stresses the importance of the coach to properly conduct him/herself. Coaches must stay within the confines of the optional coaching box and are only permitted to give instructions to players and substitutes. Coaches using the optional coaching box do not have implied permission to roam the sidelines, attempt to influence the decision of an official, or conduct themselves in an unsporting manner. Officials are directed to properly enforce the bench decorum rule.

Re: Yes, it was a POE last year.
 

As I stated, Coaching Box was not a POE, but <b>Bench Decorum</b> was. Coaching box was A, while B, C, and D were points under <b>Bench Decorum</b>. But that really is semantics.

Peace

The Coaching box was covered in the POE last year.
 

Wrong again.

Unwilling to admit it, again. :(

Re: The Coaching box was covered in the POE last year.
 

I will admit to this just like you will admit that most of us do not have to do rec. leagues (not even in most areas I am aware of) and middle school games in order to do a simple HS game. You seemed to be very unwilling to admit to that. But I have to admit (at least you think I should) to something that was covered under a broader heading. OK, whatever Tony. Your logic apply to everyone else, not to you.

Peace

Re: The rule changed.
 

Sounds to me like you and your cohorts didn't have the balls to inforce the rules. There is the problem in a nutshell. If you take a stand that is supported by your organization in writing, you are not wrong. If you cop out and give in to the coaches and let them do as THEY see fit, you might need to look in the mirror to see if you really have what it takes. You constantly remind us that you are a college official (at least a few games a year), and I guarantee you that supervisors want the rule inforced.

But what do I know, since I am not in Illinois and you are probably having to call games for people whose backgrounds allow for profanity as a way of life that should not be inforced and who do not need authority figures with the guts to do what is right instead of what is easy.

Re: Re: The rule changed.
 

Bigwhistle
I think that's a bit harsh of an assessment of Jruts stance. I think this is more an instance where the refs are going to call the game as it is played on the court, and use the coaching box rule when the coach is causing a problem. NF went first to the seatbelt and then to the optional box a long time ago because of coach problems. I think that most refs are not expending a lot of energy trying to enforce a rule that does not significantly impact the play on the court. When a coach's comportment becomes a problem, the rule is there and can be very useful.

Most refs have their own set of lines that coaches can't cross, and when they do, they are seatbelted. And I got one who had a narrower set of lines, or a narrower mind when it comes to coaches pointing out obvious oversights!

Coach,

I don't have a problem with officials giving a lot of leeway to coaches who are doing their job and hanppen to leave the box. Rut's comment however was that there was not a single instance that he knew of in his area where the box was enforced. This either means that all of the coaches were angels all year (doubtful) or that the instances where action need to be taken were overlooked.

Hawks Coach,

In reading your posts you seem like a real gentleman and a great asset to your kids and the game. It can not be surprising to any of us that your first T came in such a manner (as opposed to the type of T's we give most coaches). I remember when I first started officiating and how reluctant and nervous I was about calling my first T. Once it was over and I survived and realized that the world had not ended, it became easier to issue them. Yes, your situation stinks but I hope that your personal flood gates have not opened and that you continue to approach the game with your positive attitude. Having coaches who just coach and leave the officiating to the officials truly makes our jobs that much easier!

Gotcha BW and I concur with your assessment of the specific statements jrut made. I also thought his language was a bit extreme, but I have seen that behavior enough that I sometimes tend to ignore the stylistic elements and focus on the overall message, which was that the refs tended to ignore the coaching box POE and focus on the game. And I agree with jrut that it is the right thing to do.

I have only seen one ref that made the box a personal POE, and he can't ref the floor to save his @$$. However, he issues timeouts as soon as he sees a coach leave the box, reasoning that the only way you can leave it is to request a TO :confused: . You can't contest the TO or he will give you a T - his rule! He has even gave my team a TO when I was in the six foot painted box, because he redefined the box to his liking and I wasn't in it - no argument allowed! Never mind that it was the third quarter and I was standing exactly where I had been the entire game.

When you see those kind of extremes, you appreciate the refs who have a sense of perspective.

You mean we can't apply our elasticity rules here? :):):):)

The way he stretches things, elasticity is occurring.

I have better things to worry about.
 

BigWhistle,

I think you need to realize that officials that I know do not worry about coaches unless they are bothering them. Or at least the accomplished ones. If coaches are coaching and talking to their kids, they can stand anywhere as far as I am concerned. But the minute they start yelling at me and complaining about things I am doing and getting my attention, we have a problem. Then and only then did I know any official make a real issue out of the coaching box. To me Ts are a weapon that need to be used carefully. Not to be used everytime a slight infraction is violated. Or at best, not obvious to everyone in the gym.

Coaches have a job to do, officials have a job to do. I cannot do my job if I am looking at the coach all day and all night. And when they do step out of the box, we encourage them to get back.

Not a big deal from where I am standing.

Peace