Coach was yelling at me about a call, and ended up with, "...Judas Priest!!" I whacked him. I don't regret the call, but now I am wondering if this phrase would be considered profanity?

Actually, the whole situation was a triumph for me, since I responded to this coach really appropriately all through the game, and at the end, he told me I did a good job, even though I had whacked him.

I know we aren't supposed to believe it when a coach says we did a good job, if we're not going to believe it when he says we did a lousy job. But when a coach gets whacked, and then says I did a good job, I'm gonna take it as a compliment!

Depends.
 

I think that depends on what religious conviction you hold.

Peace

I wouldn't say it's profanity (it's right up there with "doggonit"). But clearly it is objecting to the official's decision in a manner that is unsportsmanlike. Especially if it was loud enough for the whole gym to hear, trying to show up the official.

Chuck

If you consider it profane then it is profanity. Everyone
has their limits, it's good that you know yours. And
soon enough the coaches in your area will know it too.

I don't know... "doggonit" has a soft sort of twang that doesn't feel quite so hostile. "Judas Priest" is so much more explosive and is more clearly an attempt to show up the ref, don'cha think?

Juulie - I'm sure we can all agree that there are some words that are clearly profane when said during a basketball game and deserve a T if you hear them in any context.

There are others, some of them religious references, that may not be, by themselves, considered profanity, but depending on the context, could warrant a T.

Of course, any word used in certain contexts, can and should result in a T. For instance, "stupid" isn't profanity, but if a coach calls you "stupid", you ring him up.

Of course, I'm just reasoning all this not from experience, since I never have had anyone use profanity in any of my games and I have never issued a T.

Yeah....and some pigs just flew past my window. ;)

Mark -- Yes, I understand, I just get this sort of creepy feeling from those words, like I do when I hear a coach say the words these are meant to replace. It's the attitude behind it that's bad.

The interesting thing about this incident is that I broke the basic rule about talking to this coach after I gave the T. He asked, "What did I do to get a T?" I said, "Coach, if you're in control of your self, you know what you said. If you're not in control, you'd better give yourself a little break." He said, "Oh, I know what I said..." I interrupted, "Good, then we understand each other." Somehow, this worked. He was polite and respectful the rest of the game, and as I said before, told me I did a good job.

I felt in control of the game, and of myself, and the T made the game better, and it just worked. Hmm... Now if I can just carry this skill through until next Feb 15...

Area is a factor.
 

Mark, I do not necessarily think we would all agree. I think it depends greatly on where you are, where you officiate and the type of schools involved. I guarantee you if you are doing games in the city and urban areas, you might have a different expectation for what is profane or what you allow coaches and sometimes players to get away with. If you are in the suburbs, you might have a different standard. At least officials that work in those different areas expect different things to be said and handled differently. I think is just comes down to what you are. No different than how you might call a "carry" for example.

Peace

Re: Area is a factor.
 

Jeff, does that mean if a kid of coach yelled the "F-bomb" for the whole gym to hear, you would not think that is "clearly profane"?

Chuck

Re: Area is a factor.
 

Are you suggesting that the inner city/urban kids are not capable of controling their emotions? I hear F***, it is a T. No ifs, ands, or buts. Context or volume do not matter. I have no lessor of a standard for behavior for kids in the city than those in the suburbs. I think they are all capable of proper behavior if they are held to a high standard.

Juulie, as I said this is obviously your limit. It felt
good, the coach knew it felt good, it IMPROVED THE GAME.
You done good.

Re: Area is a factor.
 

Bullsh1t.

Difference of Opinion
 

One thing I have noticed since contributing to this board is that American Referees (generally) are far stricter on language than the referees I officiate with. And to be honest, what I know of American society in general - I think this would probably be reflected by society as a whole (ie Aussie's swear more than Yanks).

On the basketball court, most referee's I know will put up with profanity (even the F word) if it used under certain circumstances - for example if a player is injured and in pain, or if it is used to express disgust at oneself for making a mistake. In these cases the referees that I ref with will either ignore it, or say something along the lines of "watch the language". Also, any player or coach yelling Jesus Christ, goddamn or any other religous/cultural "profanity" would almost definitely escape unscathed.

I'm not trying to say Australia is better - simply highlighting a difference. It would be interesting to see how American referees would handle refereeing "down under" and vice-versa.....

Re: Difference of Opinion
 

My understanding is that this difference is reflected in more than just tolerance for "coarse" language. I've heard and read that sexual mores in Australia are much more relaxed than in the US. (Do you remember Nicole Kidman on the Letterman show when she said "crack a fat" and nobody knew what she was talking about till later?) Would you say that's true Oz, or is it just a case of the grass being greener on the other side of the ocean?

Chuck

Re: Difference of Opinion
 

I admit it, I'm an uptight 'Murcan. The Aussie dentist I would need to see regularly to deal with my teeth grinding, would profit greatly if I had to ref down under...

Re: Difference of Opinion
 

Oz,I think that players and coaches in any sport,anywhere,will adjust to the officials that they get in any particular game.If we set a certain standard of comportment for them in that game,they'll figure it out in a hurry.If they know they're gonna get penalised for swearing,they'll tone it down.I think they just have to know what they can do or not do in a particular game.It's really no different than having to adjust to,say,the level of contact under the boards allowed by different officials.

I think that there would also be no problems for us to adjust to Aussie brownpop,too!Except Fosters. :D

Re: Re: Difference of Opinion
 

Chuck, I would certainly agree. I had quite a bit of contact with American exchange students while at university - and many of them found the sexual attitude of Australians (and not just students) pretty amazing.

I also found that the majority of Americans have difficulty in comprehending Australian's humour - especially irony/sarcasm. Although as I have said here - referees seem to be the exception that prove the rule.

Australian's seem to focus more on how something is being said, rather than what is literaly being said.

A couple of examples:
- in Australia it is pretty much Ok to call someone a "poof" or refer to something as "gay". Very few people (homosexuals included) take offence.

- While in college, my girlfriend was coming to visit, and I hadn't seen her for about 3 months. I commented amongst a group of friends that I couldn't go out on Saturday night, because I would be "getting some". One of my mates said that maybe she wouldn't be in the mood, and I replied that after 3 months I didn't care if she was in the mood or not! The American student with us was completely offended - and even complained to the staff of the College!

- General conversation about sexuality is far more open, especially with parents.

- There are more sexual slang terms in Australian english than in just about any other language (email me for examples!)

Re: Re: Difference of Opinion
 

I would agree completely - any smart player or caoch (this is probably an oxymoron!) will adjust to the standards that are set by the officials.

FINALLY - now I know what "brownpop" is - I have been competely in the dark since first reading the term! And rest assured that no Australians drink Fosters anyway - it is easily the worst Aussie brownpop (see, now I can use it:)). If you can get it Hahn Premium is one of my favourites, as is VB.

Re: Difference of Opinion
 

Do not lump all of us together. Some of us come from areas that it might not be acceptable to use certain language, but we are not goin to overract to it either. Some of us hear these very things that you talk about, but instead of immediate action with a T, we talk to them and warn them. That usually works and then we move on. I know when I do urban area games, I would not survive if I gave Ts for everytime I heard something like "Jesus Christ" and punished it. Even in the suburbs, I would have major problems if I did the same too. At the highest levels, you better know how to handle those situation through managing the game rather than penalizing every action with Technical Fouls.

America is a vast area and each of us have different standard and values. Where I currently live you cannot buy alcoholic beverages and most businesses have to close their doors by 12:00AM by law. This place I live also has the highest churches per capita in the world. Go outside that area, you will find strip clubs all over. America is just too big for all of us to have the same expectations, in basketball or anything else.

Peace

Re: Re: Difference of Opinion
 

Rut - like any generalisation - my statements don't apply to eveyone. But I do believe (and this has been backed up by research) that the comments that I made are representative of the differences between American and Australian society. That doesn't mean that everyone is the same.

I completely understand that.
 

I just wanted to make it clear that all of us are not penalizing coaches and players because they happen to yell, "Jesus Christ." I know of one league in particular, if that bothers you, an official probably would never survive a game in that league. And in my region, you might have major problems too if you penalize players and coaches for cursing to their own players.

Hope that makes that clearer.

Peace

Re: Re: Area is a factor.
 

<font Size =+3> Whack !!!</font>

Re: Re: Re: Difference of Opinion
 

Hence, one of my favorite Monty Python sketches. It's a faculty meeting of the Philosophy Dept in an Australian (maybe New Zealand?) University. All the professors are named Bruce (except the new guy, who gets re-named "Bruce" to avoid confusion). At the start of the meeting, the department's rules are read, and one of them is "No Poofters!", which they all repeat together.

It's not their best sketch ever, but coming from Philosophy departments as an undergrad and grad student, we all thought it was hysterical. :)

Chuck

So you whacked him for saying the name of a '70s rock band? What would you do if he said "Mott the Hoople?" The point is you better be real sure of what you are doing in such a case.

You may think that what he said is offensive but if there is a state review panel in Oregon, or is it Washington, will they feel the same way?

Who cares?If it's offensive to that official,then it's a T!Any high school review board should back it's officials in a case like this.If they don't,they're gonna have a hard time keeping officials.

[/B][/QUOTE]Who cares?If it's offensive to that official,then it's a T!Any high school review board should back it's officials in a case like this.If they don't,they're gonna have a hard time keeping officials. [/B][/QUOTE]

I care. This is very PC and just because an official thinks it is offensive does not make it so. As for a hard time keeping officials, can it be any harder than it is now?

RecRef,
Offensive language, by definition, offends someone.
Since we have no "list", we have only our own beliefs.
I, personally, have a very short list of objectionable words, but I must admit that volume and delivery can make "unlisted" verbiage offensive to me.
mick

Yes, mick, I'm the same way. In fact, the very next game after that T, I heard a coach say, "Jesus Christ!" and I didn't even T him, which later surprised me. It wasn't aimed at me, it was very quiet, and although I personally didn't like it at all, it wasn't a Technical foul. The technical I did call wasn't a matter of PC, it was the coach being hostile and dis-respectful toward me, and I felt it was unsportsmanlike. And it was a good T, because it made the game better, and this coach ended up coming back and winning. He thanked me after the game for a good job.

I have to say that (especially with euphemisms and whatnot), I tend to go more by the tone and volume used (along with the context) than what is actually said.

Ex: Player twists his ankle and screams "%^#$^#@ #$%#@ !@$ $%^& @#$ $%^ @#$ !@#$@ #$^ #* @#$ !@ (*&" - No penalty.

Player misses easy shot and curses himself out softly - no penalty.

Player screams at me: "That's a load of pencils and you know it!" - probably going to get a T because of the tone, even though he didn't use the usual term for a load.

Mark,
I envision no way that I could possibly "whack" such a clever player. :)
...But I hear ya.
mick

Well, ya know, I'd have to stop laughing first.

If I wasn't laughing to begin with - T.