HS vs. College
 

Is it me or does it seems like at the HS level, officials tend to get too caught up PCAs vs. Ball watching. There is a difference, isn’t there??

When working with college officials, I find that their mindset is, to referee their PCA to the best of their ability while seeing as much of the court as possible. Their focus is more on seeing secondary defenders, expanding their PCA when there’s no competitive match-up. Quick whistles on RSBQ plays vs. a patient whistle on plays to the bucket & allowing the player to finish. Knowing that more contact is sure to occur the closer a player gets to the basket, but learning how to sort out whats marginal vs. a foul. They also, might ask why you didn’t have a double whistle when they made a call in the grey area.

Some HS officials, that I know (especially those who don’t attend camps) think it’s ball watching when you double down with them. They want to have the only whistle on the play. I’ve noticed when a partner doesn’t open up to accept the play at L & the contact isn’t marginal, if you wait a sec or two before coming with a whistle, they will get upset & say they were passing on it. But the entire gym including grandma up in the bleachers saw it.

Most of the time you can forget about being like-minded on RSBQ, possession consequence, knowing the impact of your whistle, etc.

Has anybody else noticed some of these differences in the officials mindset from HS to college? Or is it just the particular individuals & not their level of experience?

How do you handle incorporating the things your college buddies teach you with your HS partners without ruffling feathers?

I think people that have worked college basketball tend to have had to attend more camps and are trained not to do certain things. I do not think it is much more complicated than that. Because if you ball watched at a college camp, you would be called out rather quickly for doing such a thing.

If I am talking to high school officials about things, I do not mention anything about college ball unless it is completely relevant to the discussion. For example if someone is trying to bring a college mechanic to the high school level, but it does not apply to the high school level. Other than that, I do not even go there because people think you are trying to make them feel less then.

Peace

You don't. You incorporate it into your game.

I hear you & did not intend for the post to put anybody down, for I am just a mere HS official with aspirations & dreams.

It's just difficult to work on preparing for camps with people who aren't on the same page. Kinda makes for an inconsistent game. ie; once a player gathers the ball, I'm putting them on the line while others say great job getting to the cup, now take the ball out & start over.

But I understand, basically control what you can control...

Are you a member of Ed Rush's Court Club Ch1Town? I think you'd really enjoy it if you're not.

All you can do is call your game. Stop worrying about what others do or call. If they are not calling what they are supposed to, it will be exposed. This is how people get advanced all the time. Just do your job and let the chips fall where they may.

Peace

Gotcha JRut, thanks.

bradfordwilkins - So you have made that investment too? I really do enjoy year-round mentoring/coaching... best thing that has happened for my game.

I would almost guarantee he is part of the court club because the terminology and phrases he is using are rarely if ever used at college camps and I've been to a good amount of those! Quick whistle on RSBQ vs. Patient whistles on drives??? Yeah def. Ed Rush stuff. That's great! I encourage more people to become part of the court club.

Sorry to say it and people can just say I'm bias but most of the things you are speaking of when you say "college" is pro stuff. In my personal opinion, plays to the hoop, in college, need to have more whistles. I believe there are too many plays that involve a lot of illegal contact and yet it goes uncalled for reasons I have tried to understand and yet don't. Granted I don't work big time D1, yes I work some D1 but not big time, so I'm not there and don't get it. Its just good to see that John Adams recognizes that there is indeed a problem cause he is wanting officials to up their play calling to 80 percent! That seems crazy to me. I think it should be higher but once again i don't know how bad it was but apparently it was bad to him. The greatest in the world call in the mid 90s

What are RSBQ plays? Also, what is the 'Ed Rush's Court Club?'

RSBQ plays stands for Rhythm, Speed, Balance, and Quickness. These are plays on the perimeter with a dribbler primarily. If a player is driving to the hoop and any of these are affected then you have a foul, if not its a play on.

Rut made some excellent comments already, but I would like to add a thought.

It seems to me that the biggest difference between the HS and college officials is the amount of contact that triggers a whistle.
Mostly, the HS only officials let too much go, while those work college have had it drilled into them over the past few years that we need to clean up the game. That means control rough play and whistle contact that prevents freedom of movement.
Although the college players are bigger and stronger, I believe that the game is called more precisely because everything is captured on video and the officials are highly scrutinized. At the HS level, one can get away with much more because there isn't the same level of review.

I second this question, what is the Ed Rush Court Club?

Learn to Become A Top Level Referee

Honestly, the best investment I've made. First, you get 8 hour-long CDs with top officials at all levels including two with Ed Rush himself, 2 dvds on how to breakdown tape, a few great books, the opportunity to email Ed Rush and have him review your game tape, etc.

My favorite part, hands down, is the monthly calls usually with a guest (for April it was NBA Group Supervisor Jim Wishmier) which last between an hour and two hours... about 1/3rd of it includes review game footage and talking about playcalling/positioning principles. Every other month it includes an interview with a top official or assigner (John Adams was on for March).

It is like $400 but spread out over 4 months... honestly I make $80-100 a night doing 3 games in summer rec ball so thats one less paycheck a month and it pays for itself.

I don't work with them honestly juts someone who has been thrilled with the program (although if you mention my name I think I get like a free CD or something lol).

And yea Ch1 -- I love it and figured using your vocab that you were a member too. Are you going to the camp at Villanova?
Mention my name and I think I get a kick

Yeah Ed T. is the best out there in the officiating world. His knowledge is unbelievably. I love learning from him. its always a great day when i get to break tape down with him in the room!

Agreed, just be a good partner and call your game.

I wish you guys would make up your minds. For years (I'd say 5 years), the buzzword at "pro" camps that I attended was "cheap and-1s". There was a HUGE value placed on holding your whistle on any play going to the basket and let it finish without a whistle unless the contact caused the try to miss.

I haven't been to a pro-philosophy camp in the last two years, so perhaps that emphasis has changed. If so, all I can say is, thank goodness.

I said this at the beginning of the season when the 70% figure was stated for last year's NCAA tournament: I simply don't believe it. There's no way that the BEST 90 officials in the country miss 3 out of every 10 calls/no-calls. Either the evaluation method was flawed, or the people evaluating the tape were looking to make a point.

It was accurate mainly because all the veteran guys who don't go to camps to work on their game ball watch and call all over the floor.

No I wasn't saying the figure was too low. I would say 70% is about right, maybe a little higher than that. I was stating that I think he should set the bar higher and aim for about 88-90%. But there are just so many philosophies in the college game and so many assignors out there that its hard to attain that I guess. I hope and wish John Adams the best.

Simply ridiculous, if you actually believe that.

I understand what you're saying. What I'M saying is that Mr. Adams' numbers are flawed. There's no way that the actual percentage of correct calls in the entire tournament was only 70%.

Well what do you believe it was at?? Don't just tell me they are flawed... give me your opinion on what you thought (know) it was at, what do you think it should be at? etc.

I don't have a firm number. But let me ask you this. Have you ever had a game where you thought afterwards that you had missed one-fourth of all your calls/no-calls in that game? One-quarter? Literally, one out of every four calls you got wrong. Have you ever felt that way? If so, maybe once or twice when you had a bad night.

Now someone is going to try to tell me that the 90 BEST OFFICIALS in the country did WORSE than that over the course of the ENTIRE tournament? No way. Simply not believable.

Point well taken!! i have felt like that in my early days and even confirmed it a couple times on film!!! But you have a valid point.

now let me ask a couple more questions:

-Do you think these are really the 90 best, outstanding, PLAYCALLERS in the country? You don't think there are a plethora of early to mid 30 yr. olds who could do better?
-Do you think these "90 best" focus more on play calling or game managing and by that i mean do you think they make more foul calls based on its a foul or not a foul vs. "I can get away with this foul" to keep everything in check? Cause if they think with the mindset of the latter then they think they get all kinds of plays right night in and night out??

I'm just posing the question and would like to hear your answer cause i think you have a realistic outlook and knowledge in this area?

Almost 14K posts and this is possibly the greatest thing you have ever said.

You can retire from the forum now! :)

Well put. Very well.

I might just do that, and it would not for what I said in this thread. ;)

Peace

They may not be the best if you consider who can get in position or who could actually call the game. But just like anything in life, I doubt there are many that have been in the situation that most officials working the tournament have and could take the place of these individuals and not have a drop off. Usually these officials are there because they have proven they can handle themselves in big games and situations. Remember these guys were recommended by their conference supervisors to work the tournament. It is not like all these individuals were not working the top games in each conference. There is a big difference from working a game that you have to check the box score to know the game took place and to work a game(s) that are on national television all the time.

Peace

The tone of my last post might have sounded a little hostile. I didn't intend it that way. Let me just say that I appreciate the back-and-forth of this particular train of thought. So let me answer the questions you posted. . .

I honestly can't answer that. Somebody thought they were the best people to have on those games, though. There is obviously some value on game management vs. strictly playcalling. I'm sure that there are some excellent playcallers who were not selected for other reasons. I'm also fairly sure that many, if not most, of the best playcallers in the country were in the tournament.

No, I don't. There are a few, I'm sure. But a "plethora" implies to me a "whole boatload", people lined up out the door. And I don't think there are a whole boatload of 30-somethings out there who are better than the guys chosen by Mr. Adams and the selection committee.

Again, I can't honestly answer that simply because I've never worked with the Burrs and Higginses of the world. But I'll say 2 things.

1) I would hope that they call the play first, and then manage the game and/or coaches. If the call is there (talking mainly fouls now), I would hope that they would make or pass on that call based on the advantage gained, not based on, "Gee, I don't want to get Jim Boeheim upset".

2) At one of the pro-philosophy camps I attended, one of the big points they talked about was that the official's call must FIT the situation.

IOW, you can can call a play correctly but still be wrong because it doesn't fit the situation. There is room for game management calls. Simply being the best playcaller in the world isn't enough. While we all strive to call our plays correctly as often as possible, sometimes you let that carry in the backcourt go in the last minute of a blowout. Technically, that's an NCI. But in the real world, that's a correct call.

I believe that this philosophy can only take you so far.

There are three teams on the court for every game. In 3 person crews, this philosophy can kill the game. A good solid pre game and follow up at time outs will bring the consistency that is required to have a quality game. That inconsistency is what drives coaches and fans crazy.

Be in proper position to see the whole play. Be patient with your whistle. Call the obvious and protect the shooter are great basics. However, the great crews are the ones that have similar calls on similar plays on both ends of the court. The players and coaches can adjust to that. We take the bad rap when we do not do that.

BE THE BEST TEAM ON THE COURT!

Are you saying you can control what your partners do or do not do? Because I have been doing 3 Person for some time, and they either know it and understand the system, or they do not. And a lot of that understanding takes work in the off season and constantly working games to learn that system.

Peace

Knowing the system and buying into the system are two different things. Watching some veterans, it is clear that one or the other is the case, probably not buying into the system and not abiding by it. How many of those guys work on improving in the off season?
As far as percentage of correct calls and no calls, how can Jim Burr possibly know how many of his calls are correct when 50% of his calls are outside his primary?

It seems you want to take this discussion about specific officials.

That is not the point of my response.

And since you talked about Burr, I am going to have to disagree with you. Then again it really does not matter if we agree on this. I am not going to change your thinking anyway.

Peace

Again, this is a ridiculous comment to make. You're not even thinking rationally about this discussion. You have an axe to grind about staying in your primary and you just say whatever seems to support that axe.

1) How can Burr know how many of his calls are correct? By watching tape, like everyone else. Does he do that? I have no idea. But to imply that he couldn't possibly have an idea of how he's performing is ludicrous.

2) Or are you asking how he could know DURING the game? If so, then how do YOU know how many of your calls are correct during the game? You don't. You think they're all correct when you make them, otherwise you wouldn't have put air in the whistle. You're just being silly.

3) 50%? Really? Please.

I am not saying that you can control what your partners call but you sometimes have to match what your partners call to be consistent. That is why team work is so important.

If we are the worst team on the court for that game, I guarantee that both coaches know, most players know and most fans can sense.

I am sure that you have been doing for some time. I am working on 15 years of doing and feel I get better each year. I work my butt off in the off season as I am sure that you do. I am going to 6 camps this summer, 1 as clinician and 5 as a camper, all college. I will be a clinician at several training sessions for HS this summer as well. That is why we do this.

I do not concern myself with what coaches, players or fans think about anything. Not something I go around worrying about.

Secondly the term consistency from many people means, "Call the game consistently for me." I am not going to mirror everything my partner does just because they have called something. I am going to call what I am supposed to and call what happens in my area. If I have a partner that is calling all kind of crap, I am not calling the game to make me look like crap too.

I am a state licensed official and I will also be at many camps simply as a clinician. I am still trying to figure out what other camps I will attend on my own as I will be very busy this summer with some personal projects. And at camps especially I do not want people to just call something to mirror partners. There is a difference between being consistent and doing things to fake consistency. And also do not feel that consistency is the most important thing when both teams will not play the same on either end of the court.

Peace