African American Officials in the NCAA Tourney
 

It was very interesting and noteworthy that the lack of a fair number of African American officials in the 2009 NCAA men's division I tourney prompted Larry Rose, supervisor of the MEAC to send a note of concern to John Adams, the National Coordinator of Officials.

In response to Larry Rose's letter, Adams encouraged African American officials who also felt that this was a concern, to voice their opinions in writing. I wonder how many will actually put their feelings in writing.

There was an obvious lack of an African American presence in the Sweet 16 for sure. As many African Americans that play basketball, there should be greater representation of African American officials...especially since there are a very high number of QUALIFIED African American officials, who simply have not received their chance yet.

This is not a post to stir any racist comments...just a true reporting of what took place and hopefully a post that will stimulate good conversation and thoughts...

This is my first post...my next will be my letter to Adams (of course without my name). I think if any change will come about, it will be because of people like Larry Rose or other BIG TIME, BIG NAME African American officials. Hopefully, they realize that they have more influence than an African American official who has few years in division I or may not have the "name" yet. We'll see how much we (AA) stick together on this one...

Let the games begin

Noted.

Good luck.

for factual accuracy, here are the african-american officials who have worked in the Final Four going back 10 years:

2008
Ed Hightower#
Tony Greene
Verne Harris

2007
Tony Greene#
Verne Harris
Ted Valentine

2006
Tony Greene#
Ed Hightower
Ted Valentine

2005
Verne Harris#
Reggie Greenwood
Ed Hightower

2004
Verne Harris#
Donnee Gray
Olandis Poole

2003
Gerald Boudreaux#
Reginald Cofer#
Donnee Gray
David Libbey
Larry Rose

2002
Tony Greene#
Ed Hightower
David Libbey

2001
Gerald Boudreaux#
Tony Greene
David Libbey

2000
Gerald Boudreaux#
Donnee Gray
Andre Patillo

1999
Gerald Boudreaux#
David Libbey
Larry Rose

# indicates worked Championship Game
source: Final Four Record Book, pg. #25 ( http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats...nal%20Four.pdf )

Cmoore,

You make claims without the necessary proof. A rating system was used for officials (I assume) and if the "quota" you were expecting to see was not there, the first thing you do indirectly is play the race card. The black officials that you think should have been there, did not make the grade. For you to insinuate it is because of race without an iota of substance, is egregious and an abomination.

I think you need to look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are a racist.

Let's be careful here.

Someone is nibbling at the bait...Don't catch the hook :cool:

-Josh

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

With an issue that is this important, why would you send an anonymous letter? Letters without signatures are rarely taken seriously. Are you afraid that speaking out without the mask of anonimity is the wrong thing to do?

Eric Holder was right. :rolleyes:

Peace

Life ain't fair. Get over it. Take up your cross. That is the real path, that is real compassion (greek significance). That will provide you with real peace.

Jesus Christ

So, I guess I was the ONLY person who noted this issue? No one on here commented on the FACT that LARRY ROSE initiated the letter to ADAMS. Obviously HE felt it was an important issue and one that MANY people discuss in closed circles. How come no one has commented on that? I am sorry that my post has struck many of you in the wrong way and caused you to attack me. I will offer no further comments or threads regarding this issue.

Out...

The Final Four is 3 games. It is pretty clear that black referees have had a fair share of assignments at this level for the past 10 years.

Someone is trying to stir the pot. Where are the spanish officials? Asian? Indian?

Forget them! Where are the short refs at? I want to see refs that are 5'6" and shorter!

-Josh

No, you just cannot have this discussion here. Serious conversations that deal with this issue are not accepted. I should have put the over-under when someone was going to reference Martin Luther King Jr.

Peace

I know someone who sent Mr. Adams an email on this subject. It was not sent anonymously. And Mr. Adams responded right away. My friend was satisfied by Mr. Adams response.

While I know John Adams a little (very little in fact), it strikes me that he IS interested in "grooming" younger/newer/other (how ever you want to phase it) officials. Evidence of that is the lack of some long-time, big name officials in this years' tournament (see the previous thread about the "Notable Abscences"). John does not sugar-coat things...if you can work, he'll use you.

Mark your calendar, it won't happen often.

Yep.

Peace

Okay, I'll jump in here.

What are you suggesting?
1. Adams is a racist?
2. We should have a quota system to ensure the percentage of AA officials equals the percentage of AA players?

You can't compare the percentage of officials to the percentage of players, apples and oranges. The percentage of AA players is skewed in comparison to those who officiate.

Compare the percentage of AA officials in the tourney to the percentage of AA officials eligible.

Compare the percentage of AA offiicals in your local area to the percentage of AA citizens in the population.

Sure they are....but this one is simply ridiculous. The real numbers, based on the whole population, not just a carefully selected slice that skew the appearance, just don't support the premise this thread suggests.

It would not surprise me if Mr. Adams formally addressed this issue via a memo or bulletin. He does not strike me as someone to shy away from any issue.

That always tends to be a very easy statement to make when coming from beneficiaries who reap benefits/perks as a birth right, while others have to fight for them.

Most people don’t understand things unless it affects them directly. Walk with me…

Let’s say for instance that an Underworld Caucasian Group were selling other Caucasians to a “new found land” on Mars.
During their stay the use of the English language, common names & praying to God/Jesus was not tolerated. They were even taught to hate each other, blonde vs. brunette, blue eyes vs. green eyes, old vs. young, etc. The men were made an example of for all women & children to see. After hundreds of years of this treatment, all of a sudden they were free & able to live amongst their former master. During the course of trying to live the same type of lifestyle as their ex-masters, opportunities (work, school, homes, etc) just didn’t come that easy for them as they were still a hated people. When they spoke about unequal opportunities would often be the response.

Unless you or your family has experienced this scenario, you probably have no idea. Get it?

Even though the letter specifically addressed the Sweet Sixteen, we will still go with your numbers:

3 games
9 slots (1 Black per game)
1/3

Now where have I heard this 1/3 reasoning before? It wasn’t too fair back then either.

Oh that’s right, life ain’t fair (for some of us) get over it & do the best ya can.

...and just to throw a little bit of gas on the fire, I'll note that the entire thread up to this point only references African-Americans in the men's tournament, and doesn't deal with the issue as it relates to the women's side, where the number of African-Americans is about comparable.

Of course it is all because you say so. I think Larry Rose not only has the credibility (than anyone here) to make such a claim based on his background and his current job. Rose is involved with institutions that deal with African-Americans on a much more intimate level. I have relatives that are alumni of one of his schools and a cousin going to another from his conference. And considering that I was at the commencement of one of those schools in the spring of 2008, they probably do not feel the same way you do about the issue. These institutions feelings about equality are not like those here considering their students are mostly African-American. Now I am sure there is more to this topic than what was posted. But this is the very reason we cannot discuss these things here.

Peace

That's because the issue was taken up directly with Mr. Adams concerning the NCAA-M's tournament.

Just out of curiosity has there ever been any controversies concerning the number of men or women working the NCAA-W's tournament?

First off, David Libbey isn't black so he shouldn't be on the list.

Second, I have seen this in the west, east and south. If you think the black officials on TV are the only black officials good enough then you (in general terms) haven't seen enough officials. I also know of Asian and Hispanic officials who can flat out officiate.

It is ridiculous to think that officiating is somehow shielded from the rest of society and bias due to race doesn't occur. It is also ridiculous to bring up reverse discrimination or to even think or affirmative action. If something needs to be reversed or action taken we have a problem don't we?

I think the OP was saying he was going to post his letter to Mr. Adams without his name. I don't think he meant that he was sending it to Mr. Adams anonymously.

Oh, I see what you are saying. He was going to write Mr. Adams and post that letter here, but sans his name.

Ok, let's look at those numbers and see how unfair they really are.

What percentage of the FF officials were Black? 33%.

Now, what percentage of the US is Black? 13%.
Now, what percentage of the US is Hispanic? 15%.
Now, what percentage of the US is Asian? 5%.

Looks to me like Blacks are really getting shafted on this one! :rolleyes:

If equality were really the goal to be determined by the numbers, two of the Black officials should yield their spots to a Hispanic or Asian.

There are surely individual cases of discrimination but if there are any more than 13% of the nationwide tournament officials that are Black, there is NO basis of any argument that there is a pattern of racial discrimination unless someone wishes to make the claim that Blacks are better officials because they're Black and that they should be overrepresented because of that.

There are plenty of problem areas where inequities are real and need attention. This is not one of them.

It is efforts like this that detract from the fights against true discrimination problems.

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

If this was only about percentages, why are white officials not only working filling 33% of the slots? You should have a good answer, since this is only about percentages that you brought up. ;)

Peace

There are plenty of us on the paler side of the equation who would love to have an honest discussion on this issue. I know you don't mean it this way, but sometimes comments like this can lead us to think we're supposed to just sit and listen. That's not a race discussion, it's a lecture.

Just for some historical perspective on this.

First of all, it was 3/5ths, not 1/3rd. ;)

Second of all, it was, believe it or not, beneficial to the African Americans at the time. Southern leaders wanted to have the benefits of counting their slaves for census purposes without having to give them the right to vote. Northerners felt that was unfair (there's that stinking word again), since it would essentially increase the value of a southerner's vote for president and the House of Representatives.

To have granted full credit for the census would have tipped the balance of power towards the slave states and the abominable practice would have lasted longer. While it sounds disgusting to all of us to think of any person as having only 3/5 of the value of his neighbor, we should keep in mind the practical effects of this particular clause.

The purpose of such groups is simply to represent their constituents in a way to maximize their gain. Equality is not their goal. Any representative group is not doing its job if they don't try to obtain the most representation possible for the people being represented....even if it is beyond equality. The arguments of inequality, at some point, just become a tool to gain even more after the real issue of inequality has been addressed and neutralized.

Holy cow, you're right!!! Blacks are WAYYYYY over-represented as players!! We should be giving more white players spots on these teams so that blacks AND whites are fairly represented.

That's the point you were trying to make, right? :D

So we should base the number of officials of each rase on the break down of players who make the teams? This would only make sense if one of the requirements to be an official was to have played at the level you officiate.

Camron's point is that it's hard to find a disparity that justifies aggressive action.

And to answer Tomegun's point about there being plenty of African American (and other minorities) officials who are qualified and not working the Tourney;
I think we'd all concede that.

I would question, however, whether the breakdown of qualified officials who aren't getting their break is skewed towards minorities. IOW, how many quality white officials are not getting their break either.

Look, I'll admit I don't know the numbers here. It may very well be that there's a ceiling for minority officials. It may be that there is not. I don't know of any way to determine this except for statistics and percentages; but what do you compare it to?

If you compare it to the players, then the numbers are obviously inadequate; but I don't think that's fair.

If you compare it to the general population, then the numbers seem to (at the top anyway) actually favor minorities.

You brought up the percentages, I did not do that. This was not and is not about percentages. Equality is about giving people an equal opportunity.

What I do love, is the minute people here do not get an opportunity, it is all about politics. That is widely accepted here, but any mention of inequality that cannot be even mentioned. God forbid anyone even talks about that.

Peace

How do you define equal opportunity?

As in the other similar thread, my question is what is the best way to promote that opportunity? Something similar to Tiger Woods' First Tee?

Here was an interesting link - which covers the racial and gender background of every possible participant in college sports EXCEPT officiating. I draw no conclusion from that omission - it was just surprising to me. http://www.tidesport.org/RGRC/2008/2008CollegRGRC.pdf

I did not say we should do anything. We are not in the position to do anything.

Wow, writing a letter is an "aggressive action." I hate to find out if someone actually talked to John directly. ;)


Not necessarily. Then again none of us know the basis for people even raising the issue.

Why is it not fair?

First of all the general population argument is silly. For one if the product on the court dominates the game, you are saying that those that come from similar background should not be given a chance.

And Larry Rose is in a conference that I am sure that many white officials do not frequently attend his camp based on who the schools are. I am sure guys like Larry are seeing officials from all over the country or region that are just as good as others and likely is not seeing some level of fairness. Now he would know that much more than I would. I am not a supervisor of a D1 conference. And Larry Rose has been there and done that as an official.

Peace

After reading through this thread and the previous ones, I guess I'm wondering, why does have race matter (in both directions)?

If black, white, hispanic, asian, etc officials are being held back due to their race, then that isn't right and it should be addressed. The officials that do the best should be the ones to advance but obviously, there are many factors that come into play when we look at the preferences and prejudices of supervisors. It is an ideal but why not work towards it?

Me personally, I don't care if my partner is black, white, asian, hispanic, blue or purple...I just care they can do a good job.

It's hard to achieve equality in numbers no matter what profession or sport or whatever you're in. I teach in a field that is predominately female, and for some time, I was the only male faculty, and sometimes the only male in the program at the college. I look to other programs, and you'll see faculty usually reflect the predominance of the field.

What you might be looking at when it comes to the officials might actually be the reflection of what we have in the officiating business. Just because the athletes are predominately one color does not mean we need to have the same number or percentage of officials that color. We can try, but it may never happen. If it does, we've achieved utopia.

And this coming from a guy who was the token white guy on 3-whistle crew at least twice this past season in predominately white towns.

Welcome to my world most of the time. I do not have that choice you do. ;)

Peace

True. :)

Good grief, Jeff. Writing a letter is neither agressive nor what I was talking about.

Agreed That's what we're asking. Is it an issue? How do we know?

Show me where I said that?

I think it's obvious that top level players are dominated by African Americans. Basketball officials, though, do not come solely from the top level of former players. Top level basketball officials often were no more than average high school players. The racial breakdown of average high school players is far less skewed towards African Americans than the rest of the population.
I confess that before this, I didn't know who Larry Rose was. I'm not saying it's not an issue. I'm only saying that if we're going to discuss this (which is what people here are asking for), one of the questions is, "How do we know it's an issue?"

"Larry Rose says it is" isn't going to be enough for a lot of us.

Then what are you talking about?

I do not know, I am not there. I can assume, but it is not based on direct knowledge.

I was not referring directly to you. Someone else made that point and you commented on the issue. I did not say the issue was directly from your words.

Of course. My only point is if there are opportunities at the top level, I would think that some of those individuals would rise in another arena. Similar to coaches, administrators or others that rose through the athletic arena.

A big part of this discussion is who is who is initiating this correspondence to Adams. I am only recognizing that the person that seems to have a concern is in a much more advantageous situation to know things none of us here would ever know, because we are not in his position.

This is why we cannot have these discussions because if you even mention any issue of race, people come running to defend things they know nothing about. I am not asking for you to accept what Rose is saying (and we did not hear him talk about this topic at all BTW), but I find it interesting that people defend the current system without knowing the parties involved. You can accept anything; I find it interesting that you are quick to defend too. ;)

Peace

For what it's worth, I had the impression that there were fewer black officials in this year's tournament than in the past. Maybe it was because of that article that someone posted.

So I did a little research. As far as I could tell, lat year (2008),11 of the 96 officials were African American and this year (2009)12 of the 96 officials were African American.

Last year (2008), 8 of the 36 officials who worked regionals were African American and this year it was 5 out of 36.

The notable AA officials who were absent were Ed Hightower, Mike Nance, Patrick Evans, Sean Hull and Zelton Steed. Hull did not work the tournament at all. Neither did Steed who worked a Sweet Sixteen game last year. Zelton used to post here. Anyone been in contact with him?

Rut: I have been to his camp. The numbers were pretty equal as far as race is concerned (at least the year I went). I heard Larry say if you can ref, (paraphrasing here) demographics don't matter. He told everyone there he wants the best officials on the floor. I am white and a friend of mine got me into the camp. While I support your right to your opinion (I often agree with you), I do not believe that the predominent race of the players should determine the make-up of the crew at any level. If that is not what you are "saying", I apologize. I believe, like I believe you do, the best officials should be on the floor regardless of race, creed, etc. I am a realist. Racism still exists and anyone who thinks it doesn't isn;t living in the real world. However, gender, creed, sexual orientation, insert your own "ism" here, still exist as well. That being said, choosing a crew simply based upon race is wrong just as excluding an official based on race is wrong as well.

And I wouldn't have passed up the choice, considering the partners I had those nights. :)

If you believe that I said, meant or even suggest that a determining factor is only about the race of the person, then you have not ever read anything I have said. I said no such thing. But just like anything, people are chosen at those levels for all kinds of reasons that no one can control easily.

You should apologize. :D

Just kidding, you not have to apologize, you are just mistaken. And I do not believe that the best of the best of the best is always chosen or given opportunities. And if you think that everyone accepts that the best are there based on the issues of race, then you have not talked too many of them at that level. Because I have been fortunate to talk too many at that level, they feel there is a problem. Now I do not work there, I do not know other than some arbitrary numbers which often do not tell the entire story.

I will say this. It is a common opinion that many Black officials are not competing against everyone, they are competing against each other. The numbers issue in my opinion is not just about the lower levels, not just the D1 level. The gatekeepers are not necessarily giving opportunities at the lower levels, not just the D1 level. If you cannot get to the D1 level without working a lower level college, of course the numbers at the higher levels are going to be skewed. In my opinion, that is probably a bigger issue than what Rose or this OP is bringing up. I have seen a lot of people that cannot work a hard high school game, work a lower level college playoff. I am sure if numbers and issue, that would reflect at that level.

Peace

I don't understand the argument of "there's a high percentage of AA players, so there should be more AA officials." Whats the percentage of AA officials in the pool of DI officials? That's what should matter.

About 60, but it is completely irrelevant since officials are not selected from the teams playing. If they were, you might have a small point.

English please?

I apologize :D! I agree whole-heartedly with you that race should never be the sole determining factor. I also agree with your statement that there are people reffing at high levels that we have all seen struggle at much lower levels. Let's be honest, only the supervisors know what they are looking for and any number of factors go into that. I agree most with the statement I bolded (if I did it right ;)). As we know, the conference supervisors are the epitome of "the buck stops here" so they get final say in who gets a contract and who doesn't. As for the issue raised in the original post, the last thing I will say is none of us have seen the letter that was sent raising the question and none of us have seen the response, if any. Although I have learned a lot from this forum, a lot of supposition goes on without fact. We are not privy to all the facts on a lot of issues including this one. As for the make up of the crews, people at a lot higher levels are making those decisions for whatever the reason. That being said, I support anyone's right to question how those decisions are made.

As for me, race, creed, etc. should never be the sole determining factor in anything and I do not believe you have ever said it should.

I think letters are generally okay. My impression is that more is being asked for. If the letter is to serve no other purpose than to make Adams aware of the perception others are getting, then great.

By aggressive action, I’m speaking specifically of calls to essentially have quotas where the race of the officials is largely predetermined.

I haven’t seen anyone suggest any official shouldn’t be given a chance. Maybe I missed it.

I'm not defending anything. I'm asking questions. If we're going to have an honest discussion about race issues, it's going to have to start with a bunch of questions.

I'll admit Rose's opinion carries some weight due to his position.

Why should that matter? You think a certain percentage of each race should advance regardless of past performance?

No, I didn't bring them up. The OP did.

No matter how much you try to sugar coat it, it is about numbers/percentages Read the OP....

Does the OP believe that there are also not a very high number of QUALIFIED non African Americans who have not received their chance yet?

The original poster's point, motive, and attidute is so morally and ethically wrong on so many levels.

Agree, but that is not the topic of the orignal post....it was about numbers....even if the facts show the opposite of what he would like people to believe.

Exactly. You want equality, just not equal equality.

Yes Camron, whatever you say. :D

Peace

Can you show the quote where anyone suggested a quota from the point of view that suggested there was a problem? I do not even think the OP even talked about a number. That number or suggestion of numbers were raised by those jumping to conclusions about the motives were absurd or unfounded.

I would suggest that a lot of officials do not deserve a shot. But that is me. ;)

Do a little research on Rose. He is a currently the assignor of a conference that has all Historically Black Colleges. He was a multiple time Final Four official that worked in conferences like the ACC and SEC. He told a great story once at a camp I attended where he ripped Billy Packer to his face (got a huge laugh). Larry Rose knows much more about this than most of us. I am sure he has officials come to his camp that are likely not being hired in other lower level conferences (rightly or wrongly, that is just the nature of mid-major camps). I am sure that Rose or anyone in his situation draws conclusions based on knowing the people involved and the system. I do not know if the claim is right, I just trust a person in his position much more than what I think. I have not done a study on the issue or know what goes on in other parts of the country. I have enough time trying to figure out who gets hired at lower level in the Midwest, not all over the country. And my opinion on these issues is really not a big factor. I do know that when I go to camps, it is amazing the amount of African-American officials I run into and their talent. Some are working at the D1 level, many are not. I have no idea why or who deserves outside of my amateur opinion.

Peace

My use of Dr. King's powerful words was meant to show my belief that African-American officials should be judged by their skills and not held back because of the color of their skin or any other reason.

It was not my intention to offend you or anyone else, Rut. I think any rational person recognizes that the dream has not yet been achieved.

This must be the Twilight Zone. :confused:

It was a joke because anytime we get in these discussions, someone quotes MLK. IT WAS A JOKE!!!! ;)

Peace

I misapplied what I was saying I suppose. I wasn't saying any of it should matter. The point I was trying to make is that if somebody's going to try and make the argument, it shouldn't be based on the players on the floor, since that's not the pool that's being drawn from.

Might have to change his username.

rotflmao!

I wouldn't assume that. ;)

I just wasted 10 min. reading this thread.

If anyone wants more of a certain minority to be represented at the top, then go out and recruit more of that minority to begin at the entry level.

We Want You ...
 

Makes sense to me. My local IAABO board, and IAABO in general, is trying to recruit more female officials.

First I want to say that I know several officials who post here, to include Brad, personally and I would hope they all know race is not something that keeps me from treating anyone fairly. Now on to my point.

Do the people on this board realize that blacks have historically been kept out of certain positions because it was perceived we weren't smart enough? Management positions, coaches, quarterbacks, etc. At one time black teams weren't supposed to be smart enough to defeat a white team. I say that to ask again, do you really think none of this prejudice impacts officiating?

In addition to the perceived notion that we aren't smart enough, there is the issue of the good old boy network that is D1 assigners. I know there are several D1 assigners who are black, but there are still those who aren't and could have a long history of hatred.

This discussion shouldn't be a lecture, but it shouldn't be so easily blown off either. The race card exists and we need to ask ourselves why. I'm also wondering if those who blow this off would blow it off so easily if we were talking gender.

You are not informed. There are several black officials at the entry level.

"To hell with purple people... Unless they are suffocating. Then help 'em."

-Mitch Hedberg

There are people that come unglued because you say you do not like Women's basketball. ;)

Peace

Shoot. I missed the game tonight.

Well, there is a hockey game on, so I think I will get over it.

Damn, I missed a hockey game? :)

Peace

A Florida cat watching hockey? Whoa....:p

I'm a recent transplant & the Habs are on.

I am guessing it was not because you had the WNCAA game on.;)

Worse, NIT.

Peace

Ah yes, I had forgotten.

*facepalm*

Not WNIT!:eek:

There is a WNIT?

Who knew. :)

You know I cannot say you cannot learn something here all the time.

Peace

I only knew because a guy in my new association down here was going to a game hosted by USF here in St Pete. I did not seek it out.:cool:

Tom, I don't want to come across as blowing this off. I'm definitely not doing that.

I'm well aware of the racism that haunts our history and our present. While it's not nearly as pervasive as it used to be, nor is it considered at all acceptable in any circles I've been in; I know it's still there.

I doubt whether there are currently people in power who don't think blacks are smart enough for the jobs you mention. Well, that may not be true. I doubt there are a significant amount. While one is too many, the unfortunate fact is that racists are not generally cured. They die off.

Racism is slowly (too slowly) dying because the children and grandchildren of racists are interacting with children of other races. They are playing, working, and fighting along side each other.

Maybe part of my problem is I'm too analytical. I'm trying to analyze a problem that is essentially one of the human condition. If blacks are being supressed in the officiating ranks, it seems to me there would be statistical evidence to back it up. The problem is figuring out a few things to determine whether this is true.

First of all, what's the break down of the officiating population as a whole? Does the break down of NCAA tourney refs represent that?

Maybe that's not the proper comparison. Maybe we should compare it to players; but I don't think so.

I suppose the best way would be to find the racial breakdown of the personality types that are most likely to officiate and compare that to another impossible number; the breakdown of officials everywhere at all levels.

I realize this issue is extremely complex, and attempting to break it down into numbers can come across as insulting. That's not my intent.

First of all can we stop talking about racism alone? Racism is about a feeling of superiority of one race over another. This is not about an individual, this is about an institution. You might at one time had people with certain feelings, but that is not as clear anymore considering the places people now come from and the age of those attitudes not being acceptable. The best example of this is the way college football coaches are hired. There is a system and a structure in place that would not even consider Black players to become coaches, then coordinators, then head coaches. It is kind of hard to get to a level when people do not think you can work at the lowest of levels. Then once they work at similar levels, then you do not have your alumni get behind those coaches to run the program. Things are changing but there is a long way to go.

We need to discuss discrimination or institutional racism which means the system and the workings of the system did not give all people an opportunity. You can have individuals who are not personally racist or sexiest for example, but still have an institution to run that accomplishes the same thing. Women's college basketball has gone out of their way to recruit, develop and identify qualified officials. There is a coordinator that goes out and identifies younger women and even African-American officials and gives them games at the lower college levels and grooms them to be D1 officials down the road. So much that many males are left out and get upset about that fact.

The way you overcome that institutional action is to change in the inter-working of that institution which John has already done by advocating younger officials and advocating the philosophies he used when the coordinator of the Horizon League. John hires good people, but it is possible there was a structure in place he is willing to change. I know he has advocated a national system instead of the usual each conference assigning games. That might open things up to all kinds of people. I will not mention names, but 15-20 years ago, guys were getting opportunities at the D1 level because they were asked to work the game, unlike they have to go to camps to get a sniff at the college ranks. That is not a knock on them, it just is the truth. I am sure there were not the efforts to get a broader pool of officials from different places like there is today. That did not have to just deal with race, that could have been where you live and who you knew personally.

Also keep in mind John does not make the decisions about the assignments, the committee does. He has input, but he does not just have the final say. They take information from John's system and conferences have to make recommendations, but it is not all on John's shoulders and it is really unfair to credit him with this burden.

Peace

I'm glad the moderators have not shut this thread down yet. The only way we can get past some of this stuff is to just let it out. I hope we can let it out in a respectful manner.

Real quick before I go to bed.
Rut, that's exactly what I'm looking for. It'll give me something to chew on tonight.

Tomegun, you're exactly right and I was just thinking the same thing. Everyone has done a good job of staying on topic, I think, and keeping their heads.

This is a good thing.

Is SEVERAL enough? (anyone have a definition of "several"?)

My point is, if you want a certain minority to reach the top level, then you need a large enough pool of that certain minority advancing through the ranks.

If your favorite minority is blacks, then I am not informed. I have not seen a count that anyone has made.

We have a certain minority here that I have not seen do HS varsity games. But when I try to think of that minority doing subvarsity games, I can think of only 1 in our area and that person is moving up the ranks by doing a good job. However, there certainly is not a pool of any sort to choose from when assigning varsity games. Is that discrimination? And is everyone, regardless of minority status or majority status, qualified to work at the highest level?

VERY WELL STATED TOMEGUN!!!

I don't disagree with anything you've just said. Real and valid cases of racial discrimination and racism have existed and even still exist and should be dealt with.

But, care must be taken not to claim broad racism exists in areas where the data just doesn't support the claims. That will only hurt the ability to address real cases.

The point of the following is to illustrate that, sometimes, perceived imbalances and attempts to have action taken don't always come out as hoped. The group trying to make a point about inequities would have been better served to consider the situation from a neutral point of view before making a issue...

A few years ago, a local unionized employer had a grievance filed against it by a group of black employees with the claim that they were being discriminated against in overall job hiring. The employer, rather than taking a position on the issue, referred the issue to an external agency that was well respected in matter of minority affairs. After they completed their study, they released their conclusion. Their conclusion was that minorities in general were only slightly underrepresented and but blacks were substantially overrepresented based on the local population and the company needed to hire more Hispanics and Asians and fewer blacks. Needless to say, the group that filed the grievance was a bit upset with the result

{wow} When will we understand the difference between those forced to be/born an American & those who come here of their own free will? Helluva difference...

What is the solution?

In College Soccer officiating the push for diversity has resulted in Female and/or Minority referees being able to go to the pre-season NISOA camp on a full scholarship simply by indicating on the application that they are a minority. A non minority camper can not get a full scholarship unless they have secured written recommendations from current "National Referees" (Big Dogs), and/or conference assignor, and is not automatically granted.

Local referee associations are "encouraged" to subsidize or arrange free assessments which non-minority referees are required to pay $80 or 1/2 of the game fee whichever is higher to the certified assessor.

I firmly believe in non discrimination and equal opportunity. I also believe that reverse discrimination is wrong especially when I am forced to financially subsidize it.

No one is forced to be/stay an American. This Country has no impediments to leaving. A person who believes that their God given rights can be better realized elsewhere have the freedom to act on that belief.

If you really feel this way then you should really be in favor of equal opportunity and affirmative action. Those things exist for a reason and the argument against them would only seem to prolong it.

See, I don't know of anyone who can say racism and/or discrimination doesn't exist. Someone was thoughtful enough to put certain mechanisms in place to combat this. For the people who would want to do things fairly, the argument shouldn't be with those discriminated against, it should be those doing the discriminating. Flush them out and tell them, "Would you knock this off? Your actions are costing me!"

People who do this should be social outcasts. Sure, it will never happen because many of these people, and their friends, are in positions of power. But still the argument may be directed at the wrong group because we know this is real.

When are we going to get rid of these labels? I don't refer to myself as an African American because I've never been to Africa. As a matter of fact, my ancestors may have been here before some people referred to as Caucasians. Doesn't that make me more of an American than them? Where is the term European American? I would think that would be more PC.

As time goes by, those boundaries are being broken down because more people are mixed.

Where are all the Irish officials? it's a travesty.

That's classic, coach! You're basically saying "go back to Africa" without saying it :rolleyes:
For one, it would be hard to go back to where you've never been. Secondly, it would be tough to be accepted there, seing how we were stripped of our language, culture, religion & so forth.
Too Americanized.

What I was saying is, based upon this:

Quote:
Their conclusion was that minorities in general were only slightly underrepresented and but blacks were substantially overrepresented based on the local population and the company needed to hire more Hispanics and Asians and fewer blacks. Needless to say, the group that filed the grievance was a bit upset with the result.

While I believe in Freedom, Justice & Equality for ALL. Hispanics & Asians still have their own countries, still speak their own languages, still have their culture & religions and most importantly made the descision to come to America. Blacks who live here (for the most part) don't have those choices.

I'm not talking about illegal aliens here. We're talking about legal citizens. Whatever the reason someone is here (legally) they should all be treated equally and fairly. In fact, you could make arguments invoiving how the west coast was really Mexican at one time and the US took it and all the things that would imply about Mexican Americans.

Plus, I don't think any blacks have been forced to be/born an American in over 150 years...all long since dead. Those here today have just as much freedom to leave as to stay.

So if you were held captive for hundreds of years & after being brainwashed, demoralized, losing everything you know & picking up your masters bad habits in the process, then freed to live among your master as an equal... where would you possibly go????

The more some of you post the more we see why this is a problem! Yep some of you are telling on yourselves & the funny (sad) thing about is that you don't even know :(

You might want to check your world history before you make the following claims....
Are you really sure about that? Just because there are countries that speak Spanish doesn't mean their culture or heritage is still there.

I see you're not too familiar with the history of Vietnam, Cambodia, India, China or any other Asian country.

Do you really think their original language was Spanish? I sure hope not...it was forced upon them by the Spaniards. There original languages are largely gone in the world....they sure don't know them.

Do you really think India would be is what it is without the British occupation? Would they even speak English at all or be Christian?

Do you think Vietnam or half of the far east chose to be overrun by China and/or Communism? The Vietnamese refugees had a choice?

Do you know how the Vietnamese alphabet came to be? Forced on them by the French since the French didn't want to understand their original alphabet.

Do you really think that most Hispanics were always Catholic? Again, no, it was forced upon them by the Spaniards/Catholics. (Read up on Aztecs, Mayans, Incas, etc.)

Are you really sure about that? Many of the "Mexicans" were here before it was part of the US. In fact it was part of Mexico when they were here and we took the land. Some that are "here" are only coming to a land that was once theirs.

So, what you're saying is that its OK to discriminate against non-black minorities in favor of blacks since they have an alternative?

What it boils down to is that reality and truth is usually between the point of views and not entrily as any one biased point of view perceives it to be.

What is/are the solution(s)? I see racism most days, if not every day. What do you propose we do as a society? Is there anything that is going to make up for slavery?

CR, I could care less about all of those countries & their people... it doesn't affect ME. See how well I learned from the best ;)

I love how you pick & choose what to address :D

I wouldn't want to address the following either if I were you:

1. You could make more arguments than that sir. One could make the argument that wherever Caucasians go, so does their (legal) gangbanging tactics ie; theft, dope dealing, murder, etc. But that's another story

2. Yet you & your children still benefit from the hard work, blood, sweat & tears of all those deaths

3. So if you were held captive for hundreds of years & after being brainwashed, demoralized, losing everything you know & picking up your masters bad habits in the process, then freed to live among your master as an equal... where would you possibly go????

I have no solutions or proposals, it's every man for himself & I'm getting mine. That's the American way & probably not...

I think that's probably about enough since we are way off from the initial topic of the thread.