saving the ball by throwing it at the ref
 

While watching the NIT game today a player dived on the floor but went out. I thought, hey he could have saved it but what if he threw it against the ref who was standing there? If he did it on accident and the ball stays live then yes play on. But what if it were on purpose? Is using the ref to keep the ball inbounds an automatic violation or even a Tech?

The ball hitting an official is the same as hitting the floor. If the official is standing inbounds, I would consider this the start of a dribble. If the official is standing out of bounds, it would be an out of bounds violation. I don't see why this would be considered a tech at all unless he fired it at the official with malicious intent to do harm.

What if, ...

The official was straddling the line and the ball hit the official's inbound foot ?

Tweet...*pausing*...DOUBLE DRIBBLE. Either way, there's going to be a violation! Sell this one really good, and see the ensuing chaos when the coach doesn't understand the call! :D

Ok, just to add to mick's question - what if the player hadn't used their dribble yet, and there is no illegal dribble violation?

I've got an OOB. I don't have my books with me but somewhere around 4-4, I think it refers to a ball touching a ref as having the same location as that individual. If the ref has one foot OOB, then his location is OOB. That's my reasoning and I'm sticking with it.

...Or what if the player's teammate touches first?

You're right, that section does refer to ball location, and the fact that the ball has the same location as the official when it touches the official.

However, you're thinking the official is deemed OOB, because one foot is out, even though the ball touched the leg that is still inbounds. That would be correct if you were talking specifically about a <B>player</B>, which is covered in 4-35. But does that also cover the official's location? Isn't the official more like an "object", in terms of inbounds vs. OOB? If you consider an "object" to be OOB because part of it is, how come the backboard isn't considered OOB, since it's attached to something that is OOB?

(Btw, I'm not 100% sure of the answer, so I would like to be convinced one way or the other. :) )

Exactly, that would eliminate the dribble violation.

These kids are just trying to get out of answering the question. ;)

I too am less than 100% sure of the answer and am making up my arguments as I go. But for arguments sake, how about this.

I consider the ref to have the same IB/OOB location as a player because he/she can change their location. Objects like a backboard cannot. In addition, not all of the backboard is considered inbounds.

And the foot bone is connected to the ankle bone, the ankle bone is connected . . . well you know. :)

You're not an attorney, are you? :D

I know my backboard analogy may not be accurate, because the rules specifically state which parts are inbounds and which parts are out. But they are connected (backboard conneted to the bracket, the bracket connected to the support,...well, you know. :) ) And, the ball can touch the "inbounds part" without being considered OOB simply because that part is connected to something that is OOB. Follow the logic? So there is some basis in the rules for considering ball location to be inbounds even though it is touching something that is also connected to something OOB.

I'm not sure the "changing location" applies, although I see what you're getting at.

My hangup is still the issue of player location vs. object location. Even though an official is a person like a player, under basketball rules the official is closer to an object. (I don't like being objectified, but I guess it comes with the territory.)

Let's move this to the division line.

Offense controlled ball hits Trail [straddling line] on frontcourt foot.
Where is the ball ?

Rolling around on the floor somewhere? :)

Same issue - is "player location", as defined in 4-35, the same as "official's location"?

What about a coach's location? Coach is straddling the sideline, and a pass hits his inbounds leg? Is the ball simply OOB because the other leg was OOB? Or is it a possible T because his leg is considered inbounds?

Two questions.

1. Is the coach a person?
2. Is the coach out of the box?

Your call.