When coaches run things
 

Tell me what you think of this hypothetical (wink) situation.

What if coaches had the power to block an official? Nothing out of the ordinary except coaches use it when an official handles business correctly. Of course, when this happens there is no investigation to see if the block is justified - the official is just blocked. Oh yeah, it isn't out of the ordinary for a coach to say "You will never come to my school again" during a game.

That is high school.

What if a coach could call the assigner and tell him he didn't want to see an official and when that happens enough the assigner fires the official because "I can't send you anywhere." Again, no investigation to see if it is justified.

Additionally, coaches say all kinds of things like "Hey, can you tell Joe to quit calling those p***y fouls" and no technical foul is given. Coaches ride officials on a nightly basis.

When certain things happened the assigner asked why the officials didn't give a coach a technical foul. Keep in mind, the official can get "fired" for handling business correctly, but on the other hand can be in the "doghouse" for not handling business.

That is college basketball and the assigner is a D1 official who goes deep in the tournament every year.

Let me change my location!

I didn't realize you were in Vegas now, Tom. When did that happen?

It sure would be horrible for somoene to have to put up with that crap; might make a person re-consider his desire to officiate.

Well, I retired from the Air Force and moved back home to Vegas. I've only been back for a week. It feels good to be back.

Congrats on the retirement. I was assuming a PCS to Nellis. I'll be heading your way in April for work, hope the weather is good.

So, back to your OP. You talking about the Gulf Coast issues you hinted at so often?

Never mind, I forgot this was hypothetical.

Congrats my man! I hope to see you this summer.

Yes, it is hypothetical. ;) And yes, it does make you wonder why you even bother to leave the house.

I would imagine, if this was a real situation, that $75 for a double-header isn't too good either.

Congrats on your retirement! Well deserved I'm sure. Enjoy!!

Keep an eye on Tricare!! (One military retiree to another! ;))

Tomegun, I'll be in Vegas in May for a wedding. I'm pretty sure you know the groom. I'm still at Langley so you know my email address. Send me an email.

Active coaches should not have input to which officials work their games or rating of officials. Officials end up scared to take care of business. I've also seen it lead to officials spending WAY to much time with coaches, both before and during games.

Coaches do blackball officials on rare occasions. If multiple coaches have issues with an official, that official needs to work on either their judgment or their people skills. This is a people business, like evry other one. Life's not always fair.

Coaches can also provide the checks and balances needed to hold all parties accountable. The NCAA, schools, and officials are analogous to the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. Freedom dictates that having all3 of these makes sure that all 3 are held accountable.

We are no different than judges. Very important, but there has to be a check and balance on us. If people politic too much or are afraid to make calls, their peers should hammer them accordingly. The problem nobody discusses--98% of officials are afraid to provide much criticism because they are petrified of how it can come back and affect them. That's one great thing about this forum, people are unafraid to make statements because they fear no backlash. That's how people learn.

Yeah, but you don't really, really think anything like that really ever happens, do you??? I mean, what kind of an assignor would that be?? And who would want to keep working for that assignor????:rolleyes::p

Rare? :-) I have seen several excellent officials get blackballed because they had the guts to take care of business with a couple coaches that other officials were intimidated by. I work in a conference where coaches don't have input to an official but they do provide comments which we get to see. They are good for entertainment (very funny), but not much else.

I agree. Then again where I am from, it is up the assignor to put their foot down. Some have the courage, some do not.

Peace

It's almost as if you two are having a conversation, except for the part that involves actually saying something intelligible.

Tomegun:

In Ohio this is not a hypothetical. It is official policy. The coaches call the shots in the regular season and the post-season.

MTD, Sr.

The Constitution State ...
 

We're only half as bad here in the Land of Steady habits. Coaches call the shots in the post season. However, with few exceptions, they select our best officials, according to our peer ratings, and rankings.

Good grief! Dumbest two sentences so far this year.

Or.........maybe multiple coaches lost games worked by that official.

It does not have to be that simple. I have had coaches that were jagbags no matter if they won or lost. Then again coaches have reputations too and sometimes it does not matter who is working, they will continue with their antics. There is a coach in my area that is notorious for banning all kinds of officials. And many he bans are considered some of the best around. That is why you cannot rely on everything a coach says or does.

Whoa Rut, call me naive but I had to look that one up :eek:

Urban Dictionary: jagbag

That would be an assignor who is a D1 ref and may very well be working a game today.

It is no coincidence that I'm posting this hypothetical situation now.

How many top officials at any level have personality conflicts with several coaches? The answer is zero. To advance in officiating, you must have the confidence of, and be liked by, the coaches and schools.

It's not always fair. But life is not always fair.

The people who complain about coaches having power over them are the ones who will never get there.

Wow, this is really ignorant.

There are several top officials who have conflicts with coaches. That will happen in a competitive environment where coaches have a huge stake in the outcome. Officials aren't out there to be liked by coaches. We aren't paid to be their buddies. We are there to administer the game. If coaches have reasonable questions and we have time, we should give them a reasonable answer. Whether or not they "like us" is irrelevant. What coach likes an official who gives them a well-deseved technical foul? None. They like the officials who let them walk all over them. John Adams has stated that officials are spending far too much time with coaches. That is often true. Coaches love the refs who spend a bunch of time with them. Partners and most supervisors generally do not appreciate that.

I have seen many mediocre officials who think they are better than they are "take care of business" while goading a coach or being wrong in the first place. The assignors I work for make no bones about coaches factoring in about 75% of our ratings and assignments. When I worked HS ball, it was 50% for regular season and 100% for post-season. Guess what? Those who cannot deal with coaches effectively get very few games or get dropped, and they complain about it. They are also quickly forgotten. No different than the guy who gets passed over for promotion at work because the boss doesn't like them.

Grudges from coaches don't happen because you T them up. They happen because of a personality conflict. The best know how to defuse those so they don't carry forward.

I never got selected for a state final, BillyMac, so there's clearly still something wrong with the system. :p

(J/K - my board keeps getting a bunch of assignments, and everyone I know on the list is pretty damn good.)

I have seen some poor officials bait coaches into technical fouls too. That is plain wrong. That is not what we are talking about.

I am really sorry you work in a system where you have handed that much power to the coaches. Sounds like there was a serious lack of cajones in your group when that system got implemented. Most coaches don't know rules, mechanics, or the proper time and place for coach/ref interaction.

I bet if I observed your group, I would see officials spending way too much time with coaches and I bet I would also see some of your "top dogs" not taking care of business like they should.

True in some cases, completely false in others. I know some coaches who love the officials that they can intimidate and hate the ones who won't allow the coach to cross the line. That whole "personality conflict" term is stupid. We shouldn't be getting to know coaches well enough to have "personality conflicts." We are out there to work with them to administer the game for the athletes. We have an official in our group that about half of the coaches love (the other coaches are smart enough to see through his schmoozing). He spends way too much time with coaches and hurts crew integrity.

We had a couple coaches in our area that we had to draw a hard line until they learned what they could and couldn't do. I don't think they "liked" any of the officials that expected bench decorum. They liked the ones that they could abuse. Fortunately for us, our assignor was smart enough to send our officials who couldn't be intimidated and the coaches figured it out by the end of their first season.

I was working a district playoff game with a ref last season and he spent way, way too much time with a vocal coach. Twice, on two-shot FT's, I had to wait to toss the ball to the shooter because he was still having a conversation with the coach. At halftime I said, "we are spending way too much time with coaches." He got all offended and said, "in my area, I am consistently rated #1 by our coaches." I dropped it. Later that week, I ran into another official from his area and asked about him. He rolled his eyes and said, "oh yeah, that butt kisser.... some of our coaches love him. His partners can't stand him." Didn't surprise me one bit.

That is a copout. Top officials have very few conflicts with coaches. In 28 years, I cannot think of any officials who have advanced or maintained a higher slot without having the coaches think very highly of them as officials and people. Sycophants are transparent almost always get exposed.

I had to T 3 coaches this year. I didn't want to give any. I worked post-season for all 3 of them because they all listed me. That's being liked and respected.

There is a big difference between being respected and liked. When a coach sees an official walk into the gym and he thinks, "oh good, this guy is fair and he takes charge of the game," that is respect. When an official walks in and the coach thinks, "oh good, this guy will talk with me most of the game and listen to all my comments and criticisms," that is being liked. I don't want to be liked... I want to be respected.

I am really sorry you work in a system where you have handed that much power to the coaches. Sounds like there was a serious lack of cajones in your group when that system got implemented. Most coaches don't know rules, mechanics, or the proper time and place for coach/ref interaction.

[/QUOTE]When I worked HS ball, it was 50% for regular season and 100% for post-season. Guess what? Those who cannot deal with coaches effectively get very few games or get dropped, and they complain about it. They are also quickly forgotten. No different than the guy who gets passed over for promotion at work because the boss doesn't like them.

The best know how to defuse those so they don't carry forward.
I understand exactly what you are saying. I just hope that officials know how to show the coaches that line. If you have some young hotshot at his first-high school job, yes, they can certainly be a handful. You have to be stern at times. But if young officials can learn how to communicate with them, they can "take care of business" without burning bridges.

If my partner is talking with a coach during a FT, I just administer the ball. Same goes for any other throw in. That wold have been an easy way to show him, instead of telling him, to quit gabbing so much. Guys who want to brag about their rating or what games they work usually don't have the substance to back it up.

Coaches are never 100% happy with officials. But when there is an underlying respect on both sides, blackballing and screwing good officials n ratings rarely happens. That's my whole point. We can rail agains the system being unfair or figure out a way to work it. I will never kiss anyone's behind. It's not worth it to me. But I will kill them tiwht kindness until it is time not to. When that happens, they always know it, and there are no hard feelings.

I wish I had these skills 20 years ago. The first 10 years taught me some painful lessons about dealing with coaches and schools. I honestly hope people can avoid that. That's where I'm coming from.

I agree 100%. But I believe that it they do not like you, they won't respect you. Kind of the Machiavelli thing. I'd rather be loved than feared. :D

I am starting to think that we are somewhat in agreement but getting hung up on words. :-)

However, I would never bounce the ball to the free throw shooter unless both of my outside officials were ready to officiate. I have seen too many cluster____s where the ball was put in play before all 3 officials were ready to go. I prefer to just stare at the Trail until he is done talking. Everyone in the gym figures out that the trail is holding up the game.

Oracle, I think your way of thinking is partially what is wrong with basketball officiating.

Before you get upset, let me explain. I think there are many capable and young officials who do not get a shot because coaches are more comfortable with guys who have been around. The system should call for a coach to look at the play-calling of the official.

I have worked many places and some of them have stressed game management instead of keeping coaches happy. Donnee Gray always told us, "I can get you to stop calling technical fouls, but I can't get you to start." Another D2 assigner ran a league where coaches knew their behavior would get them T'd up. Sure, they could ask not to see an official at home, but that meant they would probably see that official on the road ASAP.

I started this post because I know the difference between a league, college or high school, where things are done right and a league where the coaches have too much power. I'm not talking about a situation where officials aren't communicating well, I'm talking about behavior that is going unchecked. Remember the quote one coach made to one of my partners about the other partner:

"Do you think you can get Joe to stop calling those p*&^y fouls."

Do you think that coach should have said that without receiving a T?

I'm not going to do it, but I do know D1 officials who are notorious for not getting along with coaches.

I'd rather not work those schools. There are a LOT of schools and leagues.

I know a D-1 official who has done several Final Fours and he has several coaches who do not like him. They don't like the fact that he is in charge of the game when he officiates for them. They prefer the officials who they feel they can control to some extent. Supervisors and his partners love that official.

Yeah, the more I think about that statement, the dumber it sounds. I think it is absurd to think someone has to like me to respect me.

No matter how much we may think otherwise, coaches (generally) do not like officials.

Maybe that is your experience, but I see a lot of officials that have advanced at the college level and certainly the high school level by having certain coaches not like them. And they still got their playoff assignments.

I had a coach this year that got T'd up with 36 seconds left in a game in which he was blown out. Now the details are not that big of a deal, but I knew that I was going to have this coach later in the year. The coach was so mad with me he tried to report me or get my ID number after the game. I refused and I did not care what he thought. The next game I had him, he was an angel. And tonight I heard what he said to another official that he did not like me and how he thought I was terrible. Funny thing, this coach was an angel in the next game and I had no problems with him. Now it is clear he does not like me, but so what. I had the best year that I have ever had as it related to the playoffs and this coach did not like me. So much for the coach’s opinion of me. ;)

Then again, coaches do not have that kind of say in my state.

Peace

It's almost as if you could figure some things out, except for the part where you can't.

I work for an assignor who is very similar to the one described in the OP. This assignor accepts calls from coaches within minutes of the conclusion of a game, and then calls the officials shortly after - many times before we are even out of the parking lot. This assignor allows coaches to complain about things and then reschedule games to pacify the complaining coach. It is ridiculous, and has caused many of us to reconsider officiating at one time or another.

OK, well that certainly sounds sucky.

Thank you for your honesty. The sad truth is this happens and it isn't about coaches liking and/or respecting officials. It is the way our society is going: the person who makes the most noise doesn't have to be right.

Assignors I work for have a policy of not accepting any coach calls until the day after a game. The coach gets a cooling off period and then can make a better determination if a call is warranted. If they still call, the 1st question the supervisor will ask is, "Did you watch the tape?" If the answer is no, click. We feel good about working for those who back us.
A while back I worked for a high school association which had a policy that allowed a school principal to buy officials off a game - the coach had not the authority to do so. IOW, the official scheduled for the game would be paid a full game fee by the school in question not to do the game. Of course the assignor would then switch that official to another site and he would get paid for that game plus the one he didn't do. Our assignor would then look at the rest of the schedule and if that official was not scheduled for that school anymore that season, he would schedule him there at least one or two more times. That way he would test the coach to see if it was a temporary thing. If they wanted to continue to pay the official for not working, great!!
There was a running joke amongst us to see who could get a coach to buy him off so we could get paid for 2 to work one.
Again, we felt good about working for those who back us.

It all comes down to who the assignor works for. In my case, the assignor works for the conferences, therefore has to keep the commissioner happy. The best way to do that is to make sure the AD's are not calling the commish. How to do that? Keep the coaches from complaining to their AD's...it's a ridiculous situation. It has nothing to do with liking or respecting - just manipulating.

Maybe, but if she had any fortitude, she'd take the call and blow it off. Sort of like the customer service rep I talked to last week.

Or else talk like the software reps: got a complaint about Snaqwells? "It's not a bug, it's a feature!"

This is the point I was going to make. Rocky just beat me to it. Some areas have an assignor who is hired by the officials' association. For my college games (D2/D3/juco), the assignor is hired by an organization that negotiates between conferences and the officials' association. They're kind of an objective 3rd party. In those types of cases, the assignors aren't beholden to the coaches or schools that they assign for. If anything, they are more likely to take the official's side.

But some assignors are hired directly by the conference. This is how it works for my high school schedule. In that case, the assignor has to please the coaches to keep the job. If enough coaches complain to the commissioner about the assignor, s/he is out. So that assignor is under more pressure to take those phone calls from the irate coach right away, and maybe even to discipline officials over borderline incidents in order to keep the irate coach happy to hang on to the assigning job.

MTD - I'm not totally convinced of this. In Cincy, its split. Some leagues coaches actually pick the staff. In other leagues, the assignor picks it but coaches have the ability to scratch a guy.

And still others, the assignor is the man, you get what you get.

Also, relative to the tourney, I think the new system put in 3 years ago includes more parties than just the coaches in determining who goes and who doesnt.

Outlasting the coach
 

I had a coach tell our assignor that he didn't want me anymore. I truly believe that he didn't want me because he couldn't intimidate me into making calls favorable to him. Also, I don't engage in idle chat with coaches, I just call the game.

The irony is that the coach got fired and I am still officiating. :D


I classify this as one of those "Consider the source" situations.