Article pointing finger at Racist Referees
 

This was a response written to Jonathan Ray: Those Darn Racist Basketball Referees | Fort Wayne Politics

Fort Wayne's Team Website

Video Highlights of the game - Funny thing, the only foul called in the video looks like there should have been a Player Control foul on Blue #35 for hooking the player and then another for displacing #20 White. Instead the foul is called against white for a potential 3 point play. Looks like those mean old white officials sure had it in for the Wayne Generals. :rolleyes:

Fort Wayne's record 13-9
Peru's record 19-4

This of course doesn't mean anything except that Fort Wanye (according to Jonathan) must have had 9 games with officiating crews that are not "diverse".

The newspaper allowed the officials names to be printed in an article where the author is accusing them of racism and cheating with absolutely NO EVIDENCE. If anyone knows these officials in Indiana they should be made aware of what they are being accused of in the article.

Here is a quote from the newspaper's website posted right above the comments section:
I think they need to worry more about what THEY are posting on THEIR website! :(

If three black officials are on the floor and make the same calls/no calls, we never hear a word from this guy. But because the offiicals are white, then they obviously didn't make the call because they are racist.

Why is it that those who are in a position such at this gentleman appear to be the most racist? :(

Hopefully, they'll contact an attorney and discuss the potentially libelous remarks.

wow. shockingly bad editorial.

"A dream was deferred for some. Diversifying officiating crews might make every call an easy call, no matter whom it affects. "


I threw up a little after reading that.

there are some controversial articles about refs that are worth mentioning and talking about. But for this one I'm out after this post. not worth it.

That was genuinely hilarious!

"Just maybe a lack of diversity caused them to make a no-call with 50 seconds left when a Wayne athlete was fouled and pushed out of bounds."

D'Oh!

I am a big fan of diversity.

Of course, we all know that there are individual refs out there that are racist, and that some of those choose which calls to make based on the color of the player. The writer simply makes no case for that being the sitch in this game, or in any particular game. He presents no evidence at all that what he says is true. or that it's applicable to the game he discusses.

And why isn't ne concerned about the 90% black team having a black (or mixed?) coach? Surely if race is an issue in reffing, it's an issue in coaching.

What's most disturbing about this is that he seems to think that a few racist refs can ruin the lives of a lot of kids. I suppose that's possible, although I don't think we really have all that much power. But whether the issue is race, gender, socio-economic status or a bad nose job, I still believe that as long as a kid keeps blaming the referee, the kid is then not getting better at basketball. And when the kid isn't getting better, then the kid isn't going to move up.

When my daughter was playing, there was a game where the refs clearly were planning for my daughter's (mostly black) team not to win. This decision was probably based on race, although it may not have been. But after the game, my daughter's coach (black) gave those girls (and the parents!) a lecture. He said, "Any of you that were going to get a scholarship have already gotten it. So you didn't lose anything. If you wanted to advance in the tournament, you should have shot better, should have blocked cleaner, should have gotten more rebounds. You are good enough players that you could have won this game even if the refs had been messing with the clock. They didn't take the game away from you, you gave it to them."

I think this coach could probably say the same thing, judging from the outcome of the game.

Better lock this thread before Rut sees it. :eek:

So you are accusing the officials of cheating....and you are saying they were cheating because they were racists:rolleyes:

We're All African Americans (150,000 Years Ago) ..
 

I'm Irish. Should I not be allowed to officiate teams with mostly Italian players? I'm male. Should I not be allowed to officiate girls games? I'm heterosexual. Should I not be allowed to officiate games with homosexual players? I can hear. Should I not be allowed to officiate games with deaf players? I'm Catholic. Should I not be allowed to officiate games with Jewish players.

We'll I've worked games with Italian players, female players, homosexual players, deaf players, and Jewish players, and I worked just as hard, and tried to do the best I could for these games, as I would do for games involving Irish, male, heterosexual, hearing, Catholic players.

And how did President O'Bama get such a great tan? Us Irish guys usually burn. We don't tan.

This is why our state says to NEVER talk to media. You never know how a comment can be used.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What a joke.

This happens both ways - I called a T on a black coach because he said my partner, who was white, didn't give him a shooting foul because of racism. I was pissed and whacked that guy quick even though we were the only two people who heard it.

Knowing that it does happen to all races, what race officiates more games?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you are either ignorant as hell or racist yourself.

It is an issue in coaching and officiating. But, I think there is a larger percentage of minority coaches than minority officials. I could probably name 95% of the black officials who are on TV often, but probably couldn't name 3% of the white officials on TV often.

Wow, maybe I should darken my skin so I have an excuse for blowing a call against a white team.

Of course, I am sure the author of that article is doing all he can to increase the number of minorities in officiating. I think his article would have the opposite effect. Who wants to officiate when your name shows up in an article critical of your actions in a game? And...someone needs to tell the author that we have a few more pressing issues to worry about in this country.


"Is what you are doing getting you what you want?"

Screw that. Forget about this article and tell the same thing to the people who keep shoving "Octumom" down our throat!

diverse: differing from one another

I don't see where the article mentions race. He may want a crew made of a doctor, a lawyer, and an Indian chief.

Here is a way to simply take away any claims. Give officials of all levels similar opportunities, then these comments go away. Until you do that, you will have these claims.

There was a claim a few years ago by a coach that said the officials were not Black. Then the state started putting officials in situations to take away that claim.

I do not know the situation here, I do not know if the claim is valid. But when you have a sport where many of the top teams and players are of a certain race and you never schedule officials that look like the participants, then you have these claims.

There was a nationally televised game on TV a few years back with three Black D1 Officials. It was such an unusual thing in this particular conference. I sent a text message to one of the officials working the game showing how surprised I was by this occurrence. He responded to me, "Hey, we thought the same thing." ;)

Peace

Agreed Tomegun!!! Amen

People can "Claim" anything they want. Claims in and of themselves do not inherently contain ANY truth what-so-ever. Talk is cheap so I could give a rip what any person says. This (imo ignorant, irresponsible and inflammatory) journalist can right as much ridiculous crap as he wants. If we give it any attention what so ever we give him exactly what he wants... a reaction. Its like my 5 year old son doing something to irritate his 8 yr old sister... he does if for the reaction. If she pays it no attention he stops. If this guy gets no reaction, he has submitted a totally useless article.

Lastly... race has absolutely ZERO to do with capability in the officiating ranks. Luckily most assignors recognize this.

Unless I missed something in the article posted, there was not claim of "racism." I think that was the "perception" of the people reading this article and posted it here.

Also this to me is just like any other discussion we have about perception. We get all upset if people claim we are bias based on where we live, who we know and how we know them. I can tell you that in many cases assignors and our state assign people to situations based on race and how the perceptions of the contest is officiating by the people working the games. It is a backdrop of many games. And it is taken completely away by putting on diverse crews which this article seemed to be about. And when you make an effort to have diversity in crews, then it is funny how that claim goes away.

This is no different than other seen biases and like many others biases this is probably not fair either.

I have no idea if what the author is claiming is remotely true and honestly do not care. This is no different than someone giving their opinion and this topic happens to be from another point of view. How many articles have we read here where the motives of the officials are called into question. And how many times have people here been the people calling those individuals motives or actions into questions. The difference is most of us here do not know the individuals or the actual situation involved.

No, it is about race, so let us completely dismiss all claims when we sometimes embrace other claims. :D

Peace

"Year after year, children's dreams are deferred by questionable calls that appear to be biased" (Original article in question.)

The original author did not use the word racism. He did use the word biased, and he says in the rest of the article that the risk of bias increases without diversity. I wonder what the author would deem acceptable diversity in the following situations? If we have two mostly African-American schools? Two all whiite schools? Two schools with sizeable Native American populations? Asian? Gay? Transgender? Muslim? Hispanic?

I know there is racism. I know there are racist people in basketball. I think we should encourage all sorts of people to become refs. But who will decide what is a diverse crew?

On a more general point, are we ever going to come to the place that Dr. King talked about?

It doesn't matter what race or gender you are if you can referee you can referee. People are always going to point fingers at us and find a way not to hold the players and coaches responsible. I hate the race card!

I Forgot, They Walk In With A Duck, That Talks ...
 

And then after the game, a doctor, a lawyer, and an Indian chief, walk into a bar. I'll let Mark Padgett finish the story.

If Mark is gonna finish the story, let's make it something practical. A doctor, an Indian Chief, and a chemist walk into a bar......

I would like to beat Mark to the punch, but I'll reserve for him because he has the best zingers! :)

My take on the article: HOGWASH! (yes, I watched MASH a lot when I was growing up!) This ucking fidiot of a writer needs to come to my area, where I work with several African-Americans at various levels. I can tell you, racism never enters our minds when we work. One time, I was the only white guy on a 3-man crew headed to a small town where the only non-whites were my partners. I was the "token white guy" (crew joke!), but you know what? After the game, as we were leaving the building, many parents who were still around waiting for their kids complimented us, saying we were the best crew they've seen in recent memory, and we were very impartial. The visiting coach was standing outside his bus waiting, and he said the same thing. Matter of fact, he had been fearful that we would be so strict that the kids wouldn't play, but after watching us work, he said he would take us any day over the crews he'd seen, and he's been coaching nearly 30 years now. This writer has his blind man's glasses on and needs to take them off, and if he needs help, I'll just be glad to take them off myself! :mad:

Rant off...soapbox stored till the next ucking fidiot deserving of a rant comes along (and it's not me despite the signature!).

My take on the Article: I think it's very sad and unfortunate that we are reading and discussing this subject as it relates to our "profession".

I have never experienced or heard of any type of prejudice or racism on the court during my time officiating and I hope it stays that way.

Yes, I am saying that. They were heard talking about it, and it was reported. I could give you a reference to a person (highly respected and trusted in the Oregon reffing community) who will tell you that that is exactly what happened.

However, I'm not agreeing with the person who wrote the article cited in the OP. There are biased refs, and there are bad calls made on the basis of racial prejudice. It happens. We on this board who try as hard as we can to do a great job, tend to forget that there are the lowlifes out there who don't have the best possible attitude.

And Jeff is right that the best way to avoid the appearance would be to work to actively move the best refs of color up to the various levels in all associations and in all areas. (I'd say the same thing for female refs, but that's another subject).

Still, it does "the cause" no good for someone to write an article blaming the loss of one game on the fact that all three refs were white. And then to claim that it's a pattern that ruins the dreams of kids. That's just baloney.

There is a place for the "race card" ( I hate that term, frankly). But I don't think this article was it.

The "race card" did come back to bite OJ. :eek:

In all of the hype, the author of the article failed to state that the FW Wayne team missed the front end of two one and one's in the final 15 seconds with a one point lead.

The foul shots were on a 3 point shot attempt and Peru team hit 2 of three.

Not that any of this matters as pertains to the article but thought you all should know.

If you want 50 million opinions on something, then bring up the word "RACE". :rolleyes:

After reading the posts, it appears a few officials are taking this personally. I read the initial editorial and while I didn't put much credence into the actual calls that were made or missed in the championship game I still could understand and agree with the main argument: Since sports (players and coaches) are diverse we should consider having diverse officials for these games.

Why? Its simple if we open our eyes...we as individuals (even with or without the referee hat) identify with others who LOOK like we do or THINK like we think. It's the simple truth for the majority of people walking this earth. Do we try to be biased? In most cases NO, but it still happens. Blame the unconscious mind...I don't know but it happens.

I believe people feel better about a game called when A) the officials either don't look like either team (i.e. 2 Hispanic teams playing with 2 Caucasian refs) or B) when at least one official looks like each team (i.e. 1 African American team and 1 Hispanic team playing with 1 African American ref and 1 Hispanic ref).

Why would I say this? Well it brings balance to the floor. In A, neither official would consciously or subconsciously provide an advantage because neither team looks or thinks like them. In B, the conscious or subconcious of each officials balances out one another and should provide a balanced game.

Yes this is my opinion and the explanation may not be articulated clearly but game assignments like this would throw out the "race card" for players, coaches, and fans that so many of the majority hate to hear...

I consider myself a good/fair official, but one of my least favorite times as an official is when I walk into a gym and my partner looks like me and one team looks like me while one team doesn't. Why do you say? Because I know at some point someone is going to claim the officials are being bias. Yes we can write it off as hogwash but in reality a case can be made for at least 1 call or no call during the game even if we don't want to admit it.

For those that are still reading, what I'm saying has some merit. Just refer to Referee Magazine:

https://www.thearbiter.net/MyReferee...spx?Force=true

This was mentioned in the article:

"The NBA data, released in early May by Justin Wolfers, a public policy professor at the University of Pennsylvania, and Joseph Price, a Cornell University economics graduate student and doctoral candidate, concluded that black players received between 0.12 and 0.21 more fouls per 48 minutes when the number of white referees officiating a game increased from zero to three. The study reported that white players were also discriminated against in games officiated by allblack referee crews (“The News” 7/07)."

Do you think NBA officials WANT to discriminate against players because of their race? Absolutely not!!! Does it happen? Absolutely!

Bottom Line: In playoff games and above, crews should be diverse so that the field of play is balanced and players, coaches, and fans get the perception that the game is not stacked against them. If a team is all black or all white at least have 1 black official or 1 white official.

Food for thought:
A black man on a dark street at night hates to see two Caucasian cops approaching him. On the flip side I would think a Caucasion team on the road in the hood playing a black team would hate to see an all black officiating crew.

Just think about it......:rolleyes:

By what measure? Ability compared to all others? Or just race/gender? If the later, isn't that the problem that we're trying to eliminate? Or is discrimination only bad in one direction? Simply put, advancment/promotion based on anything aside from simple ability wthout regard to race/gender is morally and ethically wrong.

Also, I don't see any calls for requiring teams' rosters or starting lineups to match the demographics of the student bodies they they represent (HS and College) or the cities/regions they represent (Pro). If we're going demand equal numbers based on any demograhic stats, shouldn't that apply uniformly? :rolleyes: And, NO, I don't think it should....teams should be able to select the best players from their available pool.

Why do people want to compare these issues with groups that are not involved? Forgive me but I doubt in Indiana in the Midwest there are "gay" or Trans gender schools. That is not the issue and this is why people can never have these discussions seriously because someone wants to avoid the real issue.


Funny, I did not read the word "racism" in this article. He talked about diversity. It has been said in many circles that certain individuals do not know how to referee certain groups of people because they have been exposed to those groups of people. For example where I live there are officials in certain areas that are not exposed to some of the best players and teams because they never work those teams during the season. Then when the post season comes, the officials that were working their games never see those teams or never get an opportunity to work in the post season at all. Now is that because of "racism." Maybe institutionally, but not personally or consciously there is an attempt to avoid diversity. Even in officiating where the sport is very diverse, many African-American officials are getting the short end of the stick. That being said, I have been exposed to places where there is a conscious effort to find and look for officials that are of all colors or genders. IT is not perfect, but it is a lot better than it used to be.

If you think Dr. King was talking about not ever mentioning issues of race, you did not know much about Dr. King. ;)

Peace

I would be willing to guess (I said "guess" not "wager" or "bet"...that's illegal - right Mr. Donaghy?)...that the author of this article was cheering for the team that lost.....

I am continually amazed at the degree to which emotional involvement (wanting one particular team to win) clouds the vision of and impairs the rational thinking by people watching a sporting event. If those who criticize the game officials are truly honest - I bet 90% of the time they would admit to wanting one team to win (and of course the "other" team won and thereby the impetus to criticize the officials...)

I have circled the country and know many officials. I can say for sure that racism is part of this business and the best refs do not always get promoted. I know black, Asian and Hispanic officials who are held down. Does someone come out and say it is because of race? No. But some things do not need to be spoken. I can say with 100% certainty that the officials working the tournament today are not all going to be the best but they are there.

My last job in the military had me in charge of 600 young men and women. I was accused of being racist. The funny thing is that it came from whites then later from blacks. I guess I was an equal opportunity prick. I get
joy out of being fair regardless of race.

The officials we watch today will be confident and they will seem right the majority of the time. The only problem with that is they aren't automatically right because they are considered a big dog or wwhatever.

I apologize for the hyperbole. But what criteria do we use for diversity? Do teams of Asians/Hispanics/Muslims/Native Americans also deserve diverse referee crews? What about teams of nerds? (As a former Capt. of the Nerd patrol this one is close to the heart).

The original author used the word bias, instead of racism. Did you understand that his use of the word bias meant a subconscious reaction vs. the conscious act of racism? Can one ever become significantly less biased?

You challenged me on my reading of Dr. King. I admit to now being better informed. This link was a good summary I think. Misusing MLK Legacy and the Colorblind Theory

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

I freely admit that I have NOT travelled the country like you have, Tom. Having said that, in your travels have you ever seen black, Asian, Hispanic, or female refs who have been promoted because of their race/gender/minority status???

Let us stop talking about diversity as if we are really talking about all those groups. The reality in most jurisdictions is basketball is likely played at higher levels amongst African-American and Caucasian players. And Muslim is a religion and I know people that are Muslim and no one knows it by looking at them.

I would think simply put officials on the game that looks like the participants. Now you do not have to do this in ever situation, but if an assignor or supervisor makes an effort, it is probably not hard to do. Obliviously this can be shaped by the area we are discussing, but you tell me that if they did not put more officials on these games being discussed, this article is not made?

If I recall, there are a lot of articles that question our biases or integrity as official. And it is a common back drop.

And in my last post season game, I had one team that is from an All Black area in the suburbs and another school that was in the city, but a private school that was still had mostly Black players. The private school is in the shadows of where the White Sox play and in a very non-white area.

The entire night there were comments about where we were from and what we were used to. The funny thing is I was the only Black official. Both my partners were Caucasian. I live in one of the less diverse areas in the suburbs. One of my partners lives in the city and works probably more city ball as a whole than I do. My other partner lives in a south suburb, but works in many places that it is clear there are not a lot of white players. And the vast majority of the crowd was Black. The entire night there were comments about where we were from or indirect comments about my race as it related to my partners. And it was assumed by only our race by fans that we were from places we obviously were not from or they did not realize where any of us worked games. And many of the comments from the suburban team, was that I lived in the city and had it out for the all-Black team. Or I was accused of being for the all-Black team and not for the private Catholic school. It became a joke during halftime and after the game. And this experience is more common than just in the post season.

Let me also say this. I was supposed to work at another playoff game in another area. Based on what I know the teams I would have had would have been between a public school and another private school, but the racial divide would have been different. There were some problems with some assignments in the place I ended up working and I was moved. The common assumption was that I was moved because I was African-American and they needed at least one Black official on the game I ended up working. Where as the place I came from this would not have been as much of a factor. Talking about these issues does not bother me and often is apart of my officiating life. And it is really the case in the sport of basketball.

Understand I consider myself kind of a MLK historian, because I was raised with King's speeches (I had a few books with just his speeches) and I had parents that grew up in that era and in the south of and civil rights movement. It kind of bothers me sometimes when people sum up MLK's life to one speech and takes the facts of that speech out of context.

It is about the same if not worse, Because we cannot even have an honest discussion without people getting up in arms because there was even a brush of race being discussed. The man did not even mention racism, but you would think he committed a crime. And if he feels there is racism, so what. That is his opinion and many people feel there is racism in many aspects of society and sports have nothing to do with many of those cases. After all it is his opinion, just like people have opinions that someone who has never worked a game in certain areas cannot referee (very well). It does not mean the claim is true or valid. I just think the man was a little misguided and as usual he does not know the ins and outs of officiating. What else is new?

Peace

You touch on one problem in this discussion which is to use the words "racism", "bias", "prejudice", and so on without distinction.

But beyond that, you are expanding this discussion in ways which would be good if we could get to them but on this board, they've been very difficult to really discuss. This just isn't the forum for it.

This is probably the best point of this discussion.

Peace

And, have you (tomegun) surveyed for how many white refs that feel they don't get the level of games they think they deserve? (without connecting it to a reason....not because of race...just that they feel they don't get the assignments).

What it comes down to is that MOST refs of all demographic groups feel they don't get the games they deserve...that they are held down. Some chose to blame it on racism, some on gender, some on politics, some on the man in the moon.

Refs, as a group, and as part being able to do the job at all, must have a bit of an ego and must believe they're good. Most of the ones that don't have an strong ego either don't get into officiating or crash and drop out in 1-2 years.

Surveys have often shown that about 80% of the surveyed group think that thier abilities are above average....and simple math shows that at least 30% of the group is simply wrong (some of those that think they are average or below may be in the above average group...making the percentage that are wrong even higher)....and many of those that are above average may not be as far above average as they think.

The fact is that there are only so many preferred games to be worked and a lot more less than preferred games. The numbers just don't support a lot of people getting the top games....not matter who they are. When the refs don't get there, many look for excuses rather than reasons....and I see that attitude just as much in white males as any group.

Of course there have been. I have heard straight from a NCAA-W supervisor's mouth that they were looking for "African-American females".

But then you have to look at why. The numbers hired will never approach those who have been held back because of those same demographics. That is just a fact of life. It's why I chuckle when I hear complaints about affirmative-action. The number of people specifically hired/promoted through affimative-action policies will never, ever approach the number people who have been held back because of institutional and personal discrimination.

What is most disheartening is that people still have preconceived notions about something they refer to as "race". The genome project proved scientifically there is no such thing as far as science is concerned. What humans share is commonality of genetic tagging. For example, genetically, being a white male I share more genetic traits with a black male than I do with a white female. This fact throws the concept of "race" right out the window. Eventually, (I hope) it will finally be accepted by everyone that human beings are just that - human beings - and should be judged as individuals based on their behavior.

Of course, I'm not holding my breath until that happens.

Sure, things are better. Perfect, no...but certainly better. Anyone that says otherwise full of crap or being dishonest...ask them if they'd really like to go back to what it was like 50, 100, or 200 years ago.

All I have to do is look around my workplace and see a large number of non-whites working very well paying professional jobs...and I've been on the hiring team that hired many of them....based strictly on ability. They're also being equally well represented in management....in dramatically stronger numbers than the greater area's demographics. None of that would not have been the case 40 or 50 years ago.

I have. Similar to Jeff's observations about playoffs in his area, there are people who get games because of a perceived need to have racial or gender balance in a crew for certain games. I have actually been told directly, "We need 2 women and and one male on this game." I have seen it as well, especially regarding gender in advancement in girls and women's basketball. There simply aren't enough women coming into officiating every year to fill the perceived need to have women officiating women. And I say "perceived need" because I have yet to talk to one single coach that prefers women to men officiating their game; they don't like officials doing their games that are not ready or not good enough on ability, they just want the best. I have seen often where they get rated vs. each other for advancement and not vs. the entire pool of available talent.
Unscientifically, I would say that the percentage of female officials in any high school association is 10-20% at best. Therefore, there will be more qualified males than females available for promotion. And yet there are cases of women advancing more quickly, not because they are the best available, but because they stand out when compared with the available pool of female officials.

Camron - you're absolutely correct about things being "better" now. Especially here in the Portland area. Some day I'll tell you the tale of how, when I first moved to Portland in 1971, I almost lost my job because I promoted a black man. And....I was working for a major national company at the time. I also received a lot of nasty comments when I got remarried here in 1979 and my best man was black. I don't think either of those two things would happen today (I'm referring to the job problem and the nasty comments).

You missed something.

My mom was the first African-American female to be a chairperson at the University when she came to the place she ended up working for 30 years. I think there are exactly zero chairpersons that are African-American woman since she left that post over 20 years ago. And education is a place where many African-Americans attempt to go into. And I just joined a church in the middle of suburbs and it is all-Black (I could have counted two when I attended a couple of Sundays ago). And I have not talked about schools and places people live. If better means that you do not fear for your life if I walked into an area or if I whistled at a woman of another race. But to say that things are so much better is not true. Also we do not have laws that prohibit marriage or dating or even going to schools. But the social differences are often still there.

Honestly I do not give a crap about who is hired in a sport. This area is just a very small area that means anything in the bigger scheme of things. But I would expect if the players, coaches and fans are coming from all kinds of places, I think it is not too much to ask that the officials reflect those things. All the good officials do not just come from one place. ;)

Peace

Simple, show a quote.

Peace

When it comes to presentation, perception CAN be everything. Not that it should be, or taint calls, outcomes, etc. But it's the classic glass half-full, glass half-empty scenario. How do you see it?

When I played, I used to get ticked off because there was no question officials were cutting shorter players slack because I was taller and just "should have done better because of my height." Ah, the bias.

One thing that should be pointed out, however, and it seems it was blurred at least in early postings. The OP article writer was NOT a sports reporter, or even a journalist working for the newspaper.

He was a guest opinion writer. And what frames his opinions? He is leader of the Urban League so, no, he does not come to the table with unbiased views. (None of us do.)

(From his organization's Web site: "Today the Fort Wayne Urban League continues to fulfill its mission through the delivery of programs that address contemporary needs, as we pursue our vision “to be the premier catalyst for positive change in the quality of life for African Americans and others in the greater Fort Wayne Community.” "

That doesn't validate or invalidate his views. But it does frame them.

America by and large still does a lousy job with race relations. From both (all) sides of the equation. But we are trying, which is more than can be said for some pretty homogenous lands out there.

Rut - if you can't see it, I'm not going to be able to explain it to you.

I can see a lot of things, I am just wondering are you doing the same thing as the person from the article. Taking a situation and blowing it out of proportion. BTW, you can talk to me about this through PM if you do not feel comfortable.

Peace

Are you really suggesting that the officials match the demographics of the players? Perhaps by selecting officials simply by the color of their skin....just to make the number match? If so, fine, but in the order of consistency and equality, do you also suggest that the the players match the demographics of the area the team represents? That teams can only have players in the same percentages as their school or region?

The more appropriate question to ask is whether the number officials in any given area roughly reflect the area as a whole? Or perhaps, to a lessor degree, the numbers of players from 10-40 years ago since many refs came form the pool of players at that time.

When I officiate, I do see two different colors - home jersey color and visiting jersey color. Period.

To be scientifically accurate, however, I guess I see only one since home jerseys are white, and white is defined as "absence of color".

Anyway, I would hope to think that all officials are "color blind", except when it comes to reporting which team the foul was on, of course.

I only need to turn on the TV and watch our state tournaments to see examples of that every year. And it does a great disservice to those females/minorities who do deserve the assignments.

The Ink Is Black, The Page is White ...
 

Mitochondrial Eve is the name given by researchers to the woman who is defined as the matrilineal most recent common ancestor for all currently living humans. Passed down from mother to offspring, her mitochondrial DNA is now found in all living humans: every mtDNA in every living person is derived from hers. Mitochondrial Eve is the female counterpart of Y-chromosomal Adam, the patrilineal most recent common ancestor, although they lived at different times. She is believed to have lived about 140,000 years ago in Eastern Africa: specifically, in what is now Ethiopia, Kenya, or Tanzania. Mitochondrial Eve is the MRCA of all humans via the mitochondrial DNA pathway, not the unqualified MRCA of all humanity. All living humans can trace their ancestry back to the MRCA via at least one of their parents, but Mitochondrial Eve is defined via the maternal line. Therefore, she necessarily lived at least as long, though likely much longer, ago than the MRCA of all humanity. The existence of Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam does not imply the existence of population bottlenecks or a first couple. They each may have lived within a large human population at different times.

The article was written by a fanboy. Why can't any of you see this?:confused:

The numerals on the white jerseys have pigment, though.:p

Then you're more blind than I ever imagined.

On many levels my answer is yes. Why is officiating different than other aspects of life? My first job out of college I was hired to work in a community that mirrored the people I would be working with on a daily basis. I am sure that was done too for the reasons this article was written.

What I am actually considering is you consider everything. Where people live, experience, conferences the officials are from, physical fitness, big game history or any number of things we talk about here as "qualifications." I do not see the harm in looking for diverse crews to work certain games if the result is to give an appearance of fairness.

Cameron, I have worked several games with an all-Black crew. It is amazing in this day and age the amount of comments good and bad that were made about it. When I watch a game on TV or in the playoffs and I see a crew that looks nothing like the players on the floor, no one bats and eye. Even the officials look little like the participants of the fans in the stands. I do not understand why that same consideration cannot be extended to others. To me that is a fair to consider races as one of many factors. I did not say exclude anyone or to never have situations where officials do not reflect who is on the court. I just think there are those in decision making positions that can look for other officials that look more like the participants if possible.

I will say in my state there has been an effort to do just that. I am not saying that this is perfect or that you could not find more, but they are certainly not excluding people from the process. And yes, they consider geography, color, experience, conferences you work, and ratings to make those decisions. This is also not just anecdotal comment, there is some scientific evidence that shows this and the words from the people making those decisions have also made references to those things. Their efforts have diminished the complaints that would take place to a minimum. A few years ago the diversity of the officials was a big deal in a post season game where a coach put it front and center. You do not hear that constant complaining anymore. Out of the 12 officials that worked the State Finals in my state for the Boy's Class 3A and 4A Tournament (big schools), 3 were Black. Out of the 8 teams, 5 were entirely Black teams from the Head coaches, all the players and the water boy. And the top players on the other teams were mostly Black except one school. And that school beat on of the teams out of that five by a last second shot by a player that was Black. Are you telling me that if our state wanted to have more than 3 African-American officials would have been unacceptable considering what the tournament looked like?

At the high school level I feel strongly that this is about education. This is not even the college level. I feel like the participants should have the right to see people in leadership roles that look like them. To me it sends a bad message if you say to the players, you can play the game, but when it comes to running the game you cannot participate. And that is why for younger people what happen in this past election was so emotional for some many.

Peace

So you'd have no problem with picking only white officials then, to the exclusion of black officials, if the players on both teams are white?

And we've imagined plenty.

That already happens. Why would I have a problem with this situation?

For the record that very thing happened to me personally in a conference I no longer work. Every game my crew had with this particular conference, we almost always worked this one school that had a Black coach, players and fans. It ended up causing a conflict because we could not get away from this particular school. When we were assigned two all white school and communities (well they had one African-American player between them) we were shocked. I soon stopped wanted to work that conference.

Peace

What would the context of a good comment be with regard to the fact that the crew was all-anything?

"We have never had an all-Black crew before."

"Are you all from here?"

"You guys must be from Chicago" (none of us were)

"Brothas going to help us out tonight."

I could give more examples, but this is a family show and based on how offended people tend to get, I will keep the rest to myself.

Peace

In a perfect world, there would be a pro-portionate number of officials to match the area. So, ideally, roughly half the officials should be female. And the racial demographics of the general population should be matched by those who choose to officiate sporting events. If things are out of pro-portion, then maybe a concerted recruiting effort should take place to put things more in balance. After all, if the pool of officials matches the general populace, then making things balanced should be a piece of cake.

I have just moved to an area with a county population of over 900,000. About 3/4 of the 80 member officials attended the meeting I went to last week. The demographics from the Census Bureau did not reflect the mix in the meeting. And it doesn't really matter to me. I will have opportunities to work with a lot of new folks--black and white--here. I am looking forward to it. I think I can learn from all of them. I don't care if my partner is black or white, male or female. And I don't care what race the coaches or players are, either. I just want to improve.

I just came from one of the whitest states in the country. A local high school there won the state championship and there was an equal number of black & white players on the team. During AAU season leagues I heard questions about why there might be so many black girls on the team. From other officials. I never really thought about it because they are all teammates and get along great on and off the court. Were the questioners biased? I don't believe so. I think they were just surprised because of the state's demographics that it could occur anyplace other than Burlington which is the largest city. Most of the officials are impressed with how well the team works together and the JV team is the same way and they have won 40 straight. And it is because they play good basketball.

Or we do not look through the same prism of life. And if we did, you would come out and say what he said, instead of just implying it was said. It is clear I will say what is on my mind.

Peace

"The Moats family, who are black, said they can't help but think that race might have played a part in the white officer's behavior.
"I think he should lose his job," Ryan Moats said."

-----------

Police officer delays Ryan Moats of Houston Texans in hospital parking lot as family member dies - ESPN

That already happens.

The writer of the diatribe probably was cheering. He failed to mention in the article that he's the father of Fort Wayne Wayne's point guard.

But I'm certain he's completely unbiased.

IMO - If people think that race DIDN'T play a part in this, they are VERY naive.

And as the late, great Paul Harvey would say... "Now (we) know the rest of the story."

So the best way to avoid the appearance of racism is to engage is some ourselves?

An interesting theory.

How about we just move the best refs up, and ignore their "race" entirely?

If true, he's an even bigger piece of work than he already is. :rolleyes:

What do we do with ones who already moved up who shouldn't have?

He didn't ask if it happens, he asked if it was acceptable.

If the officer should lose his job, it should be because he is incompetent.

Whether he was incompetent because he is a racist, or incompetent while not being racist is both immaterial and almost impossible to ascertain.

But that race card is just too enticing to leave it unplayed.

Yup.

[QUOTE=Da Official;591614]"The NBA data, released in early May by Justin Wolfers, a public policy professor at the University of Pennsylvania, and Joseph Price, a Cornell University economics graduate student and doctoral candidate, concluded that black players received between 0.12 and 0.21 more fouls per 48 minutes when the number of white referees officiating a game increased from zero to three. The study reported that white players were also discriminated against in games officiated by allblack referee crews (“The News” 7/07)."

QUOTE]

What utter nonsense... ..2 fouls more per player per ball game. that is so statistically insignificant ... 1 foul difference in a game? Give me a break

" Mr. Wolfers and Mr. Price also report a statistically significant correlation with decreases in points, rebounds and assists, and a rise in turnovers, when players performed before primarily opposite-race officials.

“Player-performance appears to deteriorate at every margin when officiated by a larger fraction of opposite-race referees,” they write. The paper later notes no change in free-throw percentage. “We emphasize this result because this is the one on-court behavior that we expect to be unaffected by referee behavior.”


They blamed a decrease in scoring, rebounds and assists and increased number of turnovers on the officiating crew...

They never did look at whether the call was right or not.

Even this study's raw data says.

compared to white players, black players play more minutes per game (weighted means—30.7 minutes vs 27.2 minutes; while the unweighted means among those with positive playing time are 25.0 vs 20.5).

Black players receive about the same number of fouls per game (2.55 vs 2.53) as white players, but receive fewer fouls per 48 minutes played (4.33 vs. 4.97).
The differences in foul rates largely reflect the fact that white players tend to be taller, heavier, and more likely to play center than black players. (wasnt their a movie with a name that told us that?)

They create some foul rate and break it down by crews...

Their conclusion in their study

We find that players earn up to 4% fewer fouls and score up to 2½% more points on nights in which their race matches that of the refereeing crew. Player statistics that one might think are unaffected by referee behavior are uncorrelated with referee race. The bias in foul-calling is large enough that the probability of a team winning is noticeably affected by the racial composition of the refereeing crew assigned to the game.

Non sense because it is team effort... A team's probablitity of winning is effected by their numbers....Just dont think so.

Break this down (even assuming this is true)..They do a whole bunch of math and economic wizardry Kobe Bryant scores (assuming scores 40 points per game) scores 1 point more in a game when he has an all black crew as opposed to an all white crew.. The authors claim that since so may games are decided in OT or by one point that this is statistically significant...

They try to equate dynamics in games but how do you deal with the home court versus away. LA playing in Boston as opposed to Oklahoma. Teams with better players, players with higher salaries? Teams with better benches, points scored per minues, who is in the gameat the end.... (ad nauseum)

they also state In addition, it is generally believed that coaches have some influence over the decision of referees. If the own-race bias of the referees extends to the race of the coach then we would expect a coach of a particular race to have more influence when a larger fraction of their referees are of his race, especially when facing a coach of the opposite race. ... shows some weakly suggestive evidence of bias against opposite-race coaches; the magnitude of the coach effect is equal roughly equivalent to the effect of the race of a single player, but quite imprecisely estimated

I could do some sort of regression model that shows that when the full moon is out there are more points, or defense are better on thursdays than Fridays, There may be some bias out there but I think most of it is more percieved than not...

They still never do tell us out of the 600,000 foul calls how many were wrong or right. Nor do they analyze the no call and how many were made (go figure no data from a box score they used)... I wonder how they would do that study, or how about the one that superstars get less calls than the rookie? or that subs get more fouls than starters. I know how about fouls ber dollar earned? (Bill Lambier would have been the lowest paid player in the league)

You have a person that is questioning the current system, and people here are defending that system. So it must not be a big deal to those that think everything is peachy. ;)

Peace

From what I've read, it sounds like you are an advocate for having refs officiate their own race more often than not. So what happens to me since I'm Asian, do I not get to officiate at all since probably less than 1% of players are Asian? Should I only ref 1% of the total number of games?

You are avoiding the question.

Not accepting the claim that we should practice racism in officiating selection in one particular direction is not "defending the current system" or claiming everything is "peachy". Those are you straws.

So - is it ok or not if assigners decide that they should preferentially select white officials over black officials based on some criteria having nothing to do with the competency of the officials in question?

That deserves an answer regardless of whether you think it happens, or regardless of whether someone or anyone thinks that it is peachy if in fact it does happen.

I am curious if those who think that "affirmative action"-like activities in regards to officials should be engaged in in order to maintain "diversity" would also agree that the same practice should be engaged in with respect to the "racial" (understanding that the term "race" is largely fake) make up of the players as well.

Note that I am not asking whether this happens - I am asking whether they would advocate for it to happen. You know, in an effort to promote the appearance of diversity that is so important.

If it already happens and has been happening for years I guess it's acceptable already.

Being as I'm 1/2 Black (father, Republican) and 1/2 White (mother, Democrat; plus White step-mother, Democrat) I'm very comfortable any time this type of discussion comes up. :D

But I will make this comment based solely on my life's observations. When Blacks encounter discrimination and/or bigotry they get upset but they realize it's a part of life and are lot quicker to move on and realize "it is what it is". When Whites encounter discrimination and/or bigotry they react as if it's the worst thing that could ever happen to them and that someone should step in and make sure it nevers happens again. In other words, again based solely of what I have personally observed in my 45 years on earth, Whites have a lot more extreme reaction to being the victim of racism than Blacks do.

It's very possible to ascertain. The officer has friends and co-workers. They know whether or not he is racist. The reason the so-called "race card" is brought out in these situations is because though African-American make up around 11-13% of the US population it seems as though African-Americans are involved in an over-whelming majority of these publicized incidents.

Having known, and being good friends with the losing coach in the OP, I can guarantee that his focus was on his own teams' turnovers, missed free throws, and the number of defensive breakdowns that caused his team to lose that game. Much different than what would come from any parent, as Mr. Ray appears to be. And unfortunately, due to a public position he holds in the community, has a bigger platform to be able to spew from.

Likewise, I know one of the officials on that crew that Mr. Ray chose to target. He is from the Indianapolis area, works just as many 'diverse' high school basketball games as any other official in the state, and is regarded very highly amongst coaches and ADs in the Indianapolis area and where ever he works.

Unfortunately, Mr. Ray chose to take the stance that this team (his team) was a victim, instead of taking the stance that his team just didn't quite do enough to win. A stance that is seen all too much in today's society.

BTW, how does Mr. Ray know that the official said "he didn't want to impact the game"?? I seriously doubt Mr. Ray was allowed in the locker room after the game and I doubt any of the officials held a media conference after the game. How incredulous to make such a statement.

Mr. Ray, you deserve no less than to be given the status of 'fanboy'.

Did you actually read what I said?

Peace

Yes, that is unacceptable. Answer this....Since Illinois is ~75% white, do you, in the name of consistency, suggest that several of those teams should have been disallowed from the tourney since they didn't match the population of the state?? ... I didn't think so.

In fact, the officials exactly matched the population of the sate. I'd say that, from looking purely at the numbers, the mix of officials was not suspect no matter how much noise someone made about it.

If 50% a team is black but only 20% of the school is black, should they kick 3 black kids off the team to make room for 3 white kids...all to make sure the team looks like those around them? (and no, I don't).

Again, the officials in your example above seem to represent the general society almost perfectly. The fact that the all-black team(s) beat the all/mostly-white team(s) from some other area doesn't imply anything about the ability of the officials and should have no influence one way or the other about who is selected to work the tourney. It should be the best 12...and in a large pool, that 12 will resemble the general population.

I can tell you that from the Portland area, the representation of minorities in the state tournament is at a level that is both greater than their proportion of the population and also greater than their proportion of basketball officials. And they're not selected by color either....they are simply getting the recognition of their peers (all officials)..who put them there based on their abilities. In other words, they earned it...it was not handed to them to make some numbers look good.

Lots of thing have happened before and happen right now that various people do not find acceptable. Again, avoiding the question.

Do YOU find it acceptable? Does Rut?

Quit avoiding the question by telling us how it is already happening. Is it or is not acceptable *with you* for assignors to preferentially choose "white" officials over "black" officials under some circumstances?

Congratulations. The only thing I am certain of about my race is that I am 100% human.

A nice generalization based on...what? How "white" does someone have to be to be certain that they will "have an extreme reaction"? Does the one drop white rule apply here?

I guess you are white, since you said you were 1/2 white - certainly you are just as white as you are black - do you find yourself having a "lot more extreme reactions"?

They do? How could they tell? Is it possible to be a racist and not be obvious?

What difference would it make anyway - if we found out he was NOT obviously racist, would that make his actions acceptable? Is it ok to be incompetent, just as long as you are not "racist"?

What questions would we ask to find out if he was racist? Perhaps we could see if he makes overly broad and generalized comments about other based on this perceived "race" thing?

Would comments along the lines of "black people tend to react in a certain way, while white people react in some other 'extreme' way" suffice to ascertain if he is a racist? As an example, of course.

And what does that tell us?

Is there *anything* that tells us beyond how terribly racist everyone is - anything at all? Is it *possible* that there are reason that have nothing to do with race or racism that explain why there are more "white" officials than "black" officials (and I defy anyone to come up with a coherent and objective definition of those terms to begin with)?

Does it bother you that while "black" people make up 11-13% of the population, they make up 100% of the starting corner backs in the NFL? Should we look into this to see if there is racism at work?

Your reaction tells me alot about you. Very emotional as if someone has done something to you.

I don't go around worrying about what is or isn't acceptable. Why don't you answer your own questions? My answers aren't going to affect how you perceive this or any other situation. My opinions are based on my lifetime of experiences. And whether you like it or not my physical appearance allows me for hear things said by people who wouldn't say them in front of me if they knew what my parents looked like.

I, personally, have never really encountered any discrimination that has adversely affected me. But I'll let you guess which one of my 3 parents has relayed stories of racial discrimination that directly affected them. But I guess you would say those experiences are balanced out by racial make-up of cornerbacks in the NFL.

LOL, no nothing has "happened to me", and my response was no more "emotional" than your own - certainly considerably less than this attempt to make this about me, rather than my argument.

Your reaction tells me a lot about you - and your reaction is that you refuse to address my points, and decide to play the man instead of the ball.

I think many wonder if you even read what you say.

Let me make something very clear. I love these discussions. These discussions are conversations I have often and like having. I am not afraid of saying what I feel on them. I do not need to avoid any question. The reality is that people live in a different life perspective and these things shock them because they never have to face these situations head on.

I do not know how it is racism to have people that look like the people participating. Racism is a belief in superiority, not a practice to hire people that look like everyone that is involved. And if the players of one team are all Black, I do not see why it has to be racism to suggest one of the officials can look like them. You are telling me there was not one guy available to make that happen? And was it racism to exclude all Black officials from a game where one team in a game is Black? Or are you saying that without a shadow of a doubt those were the best of the best and no one but those 3 could have worked the game?

It baffles me when people do not actually read what people say. Did I not include places you work, where you live, experience, conference staffs you are a member or any number of factors?

Why do people say over and over here that officials should not work in towns or schools they are associated with, but you cannot even mention that if one of the officials looked like one of the teams, the complaining would go away? I know of an official that worked a Christmas Tournament game where he shared the same last name as one of the top players. People complained because of this fact and those did not realize that the two had no tie to each other. If people make that assumption based on nothing more than a last name, what do you think people start to accuse people of when the team that gets a close call or two is called by a crew that looks nothing like them?

If you had read everything I said you would have known the answer. Also if you do not mind that someone accuses you of what is perceived as racism or racial bias, then keep doing what you are doing. Then there should be no reason to be upset by what people accuse you of. You are doing what works.

Peace

I do. I am just not coming from your point of view. I think BadNewsRef said it best. This is a situation that I know intimately and I am not shocked that someone talks about this like many here.

I play the cards that are dealt. I don't need to answer your question. Just like you don't need to address my entire post when you respond.

Like I've already said, I can easily have these conversations. But some people can't because they want to control the direction the conversation goes.

I don't find it acceptable that openly gay men and women can be booted out of the military. What do I get for that, a cookie or something?

I do not think that Illinois is 75% white. For one the largest city in the state is the third largest city in the country and does not have that racial background. And if the entire city of Chicago decided to vote a certain way in an election, Downstate Illinois would be out voted. It might be closer to 50%, but I do not have all the data. But I grew up in rural Illinois and the town I currently live in has more people in that little suburb than where I grew up. Almost every big city in Illinois does not have an overwhelming white population in places like Aurora, Springfield, Peoria and even Rockford.

I do not even know what you are talking about when you say consistency, because most of the officials assigned to tournament assignments do not reflect many of the teams, and I have not been complaining or suggesting that there should be such a representation.

Maybe this is making you upset because someone is telling you that what you think is not the only voice on this topic.

Peace

It is racism to suggest that the "race" of the officials ought to be a factor in deciding how they should be assigned to games.

Not necessarily - it is racism to base a hiring decision on the race of the person involved, whether you think theya re superior or not.

It is racism to demand that one/two/or three of the officials MUST look like them.
I am telling you it doesn't matter if there was someone available or not - it is racism to demand that the make up of a officiating crew be decided based on the race of the officials involved.
[/quote]
And was it racism to exclude all Black officials from a game where one team in a game is Black?
[/quote]

This is a strawman - nobody had advocated excluding black officials from anything, least of all me.

I am saying the decision should be made in a color blind manner, and their "race" is not a variable that should enter into it in any fashion.
It baffles me when people do not read what people say. I did not ask about those other factors, I asked about one specific factor.

Is it acceptable to you for assignors to exclude black officials from a game for ANY reason?

At this point, it is clear you will not answer this question - which pretty much answers the question, I think.

Sometimes complaining is is not worth making "go away". In fact, sometimes making intolerant people complain is a good thing.

Example: Do you feel Rosa Parks should have just quit being so much trouble, since if she had just gone along, then there would be no complaining?

A fine example of where complaining should be ignored. Do you advocate that the officials should not have had the game because his last name was the same, so as to avoid complaining?
I think people complain about games that go against them regardless. if they want to couch their complaints in terms that make their own intolerance clear, then I do not think we do anyone any favors by responding to them, much less accommodating them.
I disagree - I think it is perfectly reasonable to find unfounded accusations of racism contemptible and worthy of scorn. I do not think we should ignore it, or conclude that we are "doing what works". However, OTHER people being contemptible is not good reason to change something.

What a curious twist this debate has taken. I never thought I would be arguing with someone about race where their position is that we should and ought to make race based decisions so as to avoid upsetting people.

Exactly!!!

RichMSN asked a specific question. I answered, as did JRut, that it already happens. Neither one of us complained that it happens.

That pretty much says it all. ;)

Peace

Of course you do not need to answer my questions. It would be polite todoso however.

These people being those that ask you hard questions?

I supect you cannot "easily have this conversation" - since a conversation implies give and take, questions and answers.

What do you want for it?

I don't find it acceptable either. I don't find bigotry and intolerance acceptable in any form.

Sadly, it just repeats the original evasion of the question.

The question was not "Do you think this happens" the question was "Do you find at acceptable for it to happen".

I am still curious about your stance on the "racial" make up of the athletes themselves in relation to the racial makeup of the populations they come from.

2006 numbers from Illinois Mapstats: White 79.3%
Black 15.0%

Why are you so offended that there is a suggestion that there be a more diverse officiating staff or crew, but you are not equally offended when there is a complete exclusion of a group of people that clearly are participating in the event?

I cannot speak for where you live, but most schools I come in contact with; the kids that attend those schools come from those school districts. Even the private schools have kids that are relatively from the community in which the schools are located. I do not think you can have schools and exclude people that are from the community if the entire school reflects the community. I guess you could, but it would be very hard. Then again I am not sure what that has to do with who works games?

Peace