the stare down
 

State playoff time in Illinois and I was out watching a few first round games.

I saw something last night that on the scale of things is minor but yet I never like to see. Calling official has a foul and gives the hard, 3-4 second glare "I gotcha" look to the player as if he was caught shoplifting. Not a big fan of this. I can understand selling a call involving a scrum on the floor that may require bird dogging or closing in that you saw it, but the pedestrian, block, shooting foul etc. that warrants the stare and scowl looks silly to me.

I agree. I think that's an effort by the official to show up the player, and I think that's unnecessary.

"The Look" can be used effectively when the infraction is very borderline, there's no A/D involved, kid knows he did it, and demonstrates remorse after receiving The Look. Once the foul (or violation) is called it's too late. THEN it's just power-trippin'.

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you Juulie. If it works for you that's great but I personally don't think that there is ever a need for an official (especially if your an adult) to stare down a player. It is an intimidating appearance and is that the impression that needs to be delivered.

Again that is my opinion and your welcome to it, Free of Charge.

This officials favorite men's college basketball official must be Ed Hightower!

Three of four seconds is not a very long period of time. And if you are looking at them, you are looking at them to see what they are doing next.

This is not tidily winks we are talking about here. If a player is jumping up and down throwing their arms around, they are going to have me looking at them. Next move is a T if they do not stop or if they keep up their little antics.

The question that needs to be asked, what did the player do and what did his teammates do after this incident? But to say that we cannot look at players is silly. One of the most affective ways from my parents to get a point across was not without a single word being said. This works for officials too.

Peace

Yea, free advice is worth what you pay for it...

I'm not talking about staring them down. I'm talking about the look your mom gives you when you're onstage singing in the choir, and you are holding up the "rabbit ears' behind the person next to you; or you're waving to someone. It says, "I'm not gonna do anything yet, but don't push me". It only takes a second, and it doesn't requre the kid to break the eye contact, you can do that yourself. You put up one eyebrow, tilt chin slightly downward, and just glower for a second. Then put face back to normal and go on about business. Yup, it works for me, and it might work for others.

LOL! You beat me to the punch with that one.

A look and a stare with the scowl are two different things. I understand if a player is throwing up his hands etc. As I mentioned I'm refering to normal fouls, that warrant no drama from an official especially when no emotion has been displayed by offender. Again silly looking in my opinion.

I'm always 'looking' yet I don't stand frozen, glaring at the offender.

All you said was the official stared at them and you said it took 3 or 4 seconds.

You were there and these things are very hard to describe. But to suggest that an official should not look/stare at players I am going to have to disagree. I have done this and it works very well for me. My job is not to be Mr. Nice guy with everyone; I have a job to do. I also give very few Ts during the season and it is often things I say and when I say them and when I look at players or coaches too. I would rather look at an official than yell at a player any day. And if it happen with a playoff official you might need to realize they did something right, they are still working. And the level would tell me even more.

Peace

Yes I understood that you said it was "The Look". And I get its a look that really a mother has perfected. My reference is like you say to stare down a player in a fashion that is just daring them to "go ahead try anythign and I'm a gonna ring ya up". Those stares are teh intimidating ones that have no place in our game. Thanks for clearing it all up.

I almost fell out of my seat laughing so hard.

What do you want officials to do then? Not say anything or do anything to a kid to ever intimidate them? If players think they can do whatever without consequences, they will do it. We have the right to let them know they are crossing a line or close to that line.

This is the problem with our society. We have adults that advocate that people in authority cannot do things to restore order. I can tell you what I am going to do is a lot nicer than the woman that yelled at the kid in the stands that said something inappropriate. Our tool is to also T, but if I can prevent that with some intimidation that they know I am aware of their behavior or their teammates are aware of their behavior, that is a win-win for me.

It is my right as an adult to not have some kid in my face when I am in an authoritative position like an official, teacher, coach, principal or most of all parents.

Peace

Sorry, but I give a "stare" sometimes also. Always involves a kid who is either being disrepectful or is encroaching the territory of playing dirty. Sometimes the "stare" serves the purpose of letting the kid know he is being watched.

I am sorry if my opinion is not conducive to your opinion. But hopefully you can conceed I am entitled to mine.

Now as an answer to some of the items you mentioned you have other resources to deal with these kids who are crossing the line, Technicals or if they get in your "face" as you say, then toss them I suppose.

BUT it is my honest opinion that you make the call and move on, you don't stand there and stare at a young person and "try" (term used loosly) to intimidate them. That is all I am saying, Do one or the other but don't be the big Bully (again loose terminology).

I understand Juulies meaning when she says give them the look. I already clarified that. The intent that you seem to find in my comments is unfounded.
I don't see any point in continuing this further.

I only use the stare down in 3rd grade games. Sometimes the kids cry, especially the girls. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...images/cry.gif

I use the "look" on players who decide they want to mouth off to myself or a partner...it's not a stare down, it's my "teacher look" that I have perfected after 20 years in a classroom with 7th graders. It works perfectly on those players who are standing at the brink of earning themselves a T and almost always causes them to step back and tone it down. Usually the coach will react to it also - I think the "teacher look" and the "mother look" are universally understood.

Two of my cousins had their mother as an elementary school teacher one year! Yikes! :D

All three of my sons had their mom (that would be my wife for the challenged ones amongst us) as their 6th grade teacher. She made me sign up for a time and come every time there were parent conferences!! She has a REALLY good "teacher look" that makes my bladder go weak at times.

You may want to read again

"Calling official has a foul and gives the hard, 3-4 second glare "I gotcha" look to the player as if he was caught shoplifting."


And yes, you had to be there, so it's probably not worth discussing unless you saw it all night. As I said, it's a minor thing, just my opinion, and all I'm saying is the glare/scowl wasn't needed. On occasion it is.

Whoa Jeff, come on back to herd fella. Stay on point, there was no mention of 'restore order'. It was choir boy nice at this game.

Precisely, it's not a look you initiate but a reaction to a previous action.

I do it many a time.

No need to be sorry, it was warranted. It's safe to say you don't do this when it's not warranted.

It's sad that you had to clarify this. :D

I think this is more about your preception of what took place than whether it is acceptable or not. Now I was not there and maybe it was not the best look, but if that is all the official did, I can live with that. You are not accusing him of saying anything inappropriate. If all he did was look (scowl or glare) I can live with this. And as I said this works for me very well. It sends the message I want to send and it usually stops the behavior and I have not said a single word.

If I am not on point, what are you suggesting the official do? Why is it inappropriate for an authority figure to simply look at a "student" when their behavior is inappropriate? Remember, you added all the "gotcha" stuff in the look. You or I have no idea what was said before and what was said afterwards. And even if that was the look, so what, the kid has not business popping off or acting like this is the NBA. Kids should accept the call and go to their next position.

Peace

Is this the "look" everybody is talking about?

http://graysmatter.codivation.com/co...ander_face.jpg

Probably more like this.

http://members.cox.net/bobby.ms/misc...ic-Thunder.jpg

When did I say you were not entitled to your opinion? That is why we are here right, to share opinions right?

There was no suggestion that the official got in the kids face. But if getting in a kid's face is a problem then what do you want officials to do when they want to talk directly to a player. I have had several times where players are doing the little "You push my hand, I am going to move your hand" routine. Do you think I do not say anything to the players or approach them? I guess I am getting in their face by doing this based on how you want things to be handled. BTW, the best officials I know have tools in their toolbox to handle situations without giving a T.

Once again, the claim was this was only 3 or 4 seconds long. Based on how it is taught by many clinicians (and since I am one in my state and this did happen in my state); it is encouraged that officials stay at the spot of the foul and not just leave. I know I have stood around longer at the spot when players hit the floor or to make sure I get the proper number when the foul is in a crowd. It is possible that the "scowl" was not an intentional act and no one has pointed it out to the official. Or it could have been a purposeful act to let the player know to knock it off or he is being watched. Without video none of us really will know for sure. It is possible that Fullor30 is reading too much into the situation. I know I have no problem being asked about things I do. Many officials I know come in and ask questions after the game (during the playoffs) so they can have situations clarified so they can learn. I know I do the very same thing when I watch games. I just think there is too much speculation without actually talking to the official.

On some level I feel they are unfounded. I feel that way for one I have never heard anyone suggest you cannot look at players (officials or camps that have much more information than I could ever offer at this time). And that is why many people here that are veterans have told you they do similar things or have seen the tool used. It just sound like you personally do not like the tactic (which is your right) but have not explained why it should not be used other than a personal opinion. That is why it is unfounded on some level to me (your words not mine).

Peace

Their behavior was not inappropriate, that's the point.

Rut:

My dad subscribed to the same philosphy the Bill Cosby's dad did: When he spanked me he didn't hit for accuracy he hit for distance, :D.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. More importantly though, is I agree with your entire post 100%

Are you saying the player's behavior was not inappropriate?

If that is what you are saying, how do you know? Did you hear what was said? Did you know what was said earlier?

Peace

But he lowered his shoulder ref? :D

Peace

Counselor, it's the truth and the whole truth. Why did you assume it was just involving one player?

I did not assume anything. You did not say it happen on every play or multiple times. You described a situation as if it was one event or something that was possibly rare.

Honestly if you were put off by the actions, I can tell you that there are people that might not have a problem with the situation. And that is why you had multiple people here have a different position than you did.

Once again, none of us was there. You were there. But if you said this was a playoff game (and at this time of year it was a rather high assignment) they must be doing something right. This is one of the hardest playoff periods to get whether it is boy's or girl's basketball by any official. If this was a common action by the official in question, it is clear it did not hurt that official in the past.

We are just going to have to disagree on this one unless you can give some video or a picture that might shed some light on what did or did not happen in more detail.

Peace

On an oft occasion I have used the infamous "stare down" on Rec Parents!

Yep. When mom or dad shoots their mouth off real loud for everyone in the gym to hear and I'm standing right there, I have turned and given "the stare" and found it has worked very effectively in the few cases I have employed it. Mom or dad are usually embarrassed and realize their next comment may be from the parking lot...... Just my $.02.

Sounds fair.

I have anecdotal evidence in support of this claim. When I was a kid, my friend's grandmother went on a cruise near Norway. Some European kids were climbing on the railings, at risk of falling overboard. She said, "Ah ah ah" to get their attention, and then gave them "the look." They slunk back down to the deck and went to play elsewhere.

NBA Ref Fined for Stare Down w/ Celts Coach
 

We discussed "the look" at players. How about this.....

Updated: March 20, 2009, 9:30 PM ET
Referees union critical of NBA for fine
Comment Email Print Share
Associated Press

NEW YORK -- The NBA's referees union criticized the league on Friday for fining an official who was involved in a dispute with Boston Celtics coach Doc Rivers.

Rivers was fined $25,000 Thursday for his postgame rant two nights earlier in Chicago against Bill Kennedy, who was also docked an undisclosed amount. Rivers complained afterward that Kennedy had stared at him, goading the Celtics coach into receiving a second technical foul and an automatic ejection.

The referees, however, claim that is what they're trained to do, instead of yelling back at the coaches, and plan to appeal.

"Some things you cannot take out of the arsenal of the officials. It's not a stare to start some kind of disagreement or goad him into getting ejected, it's just like, 'Hey, enough is enough," referees union spokesman Lamell McMorris told The Associated Press. "And basically he didn't even stare him down. He walked away, he turned his back per what he is trained to do and he removed himself from the situation.

"As far as we're concerned, Billy Kennedy followed every rule according to the referee's manual as it relates to handling situations like this. The only person in this scenario who has had a pattern of behavior that is unprofessional is Doc Rivers, not Billy Kennedy."

The referees noted that Rivers had previously been fined this season for his public complaints about the officiating, getting penalized $15,000 in February for "verbal abuse of game officials" following a loss to the Los Angeles Lakers.

Rivers was thrown out with 29.8 seconds left in the Celtics' 127-121 loss in Chicago on Tuesday, calling his second technical foul "the most unprofessional tech I've ever had."

"[Kennedy] stood there and goaded me and goaded me and goaded me and stared at me," Rivers said after the game. "Look at the film. I actually walked away. He asked me, 'Where do you want the ball?' And I said, 'Ask them,' talking about our players. That's my right to say that, and I walked away. He stood there and stared me down and stared me down and goaded me until I turned around and said, 'What?' That's when I got thrown out of the game."

Before Friday's game at San Antonio, Rivers said he wasn't happy with the fine he received. But he said he knows the rules and thought it was handled right.

"I'm not going too deep into this whole thing," Rivers said. "But to me it looks like when the whistle blowers don't like when the whistle blows. Bottom line."

McMorris said one league official told Kennedy there would be no action against him, but believed it must have changed its mind based on the media coverage of Rivers' outburst. He wouldn't say how much Kennedy lost, but, "in comparison to what Bill Kennedy gets paid and what Doc Rivers gets paid, it was not equitable."

McMorris added the fine was a "dangerous situation" as the officials prepare for the postseason.

"The thing that's most troubling is the fact that this person was fined for doing his job and for following the rules and the training and for trying to do his job to minimize the situation and the conflict, and for walking away," McMorris said. "So that's very troubling to all the officials and they're very alarmed by this matter, because one matter like this affects the ability of all of them to do their jobs."

Rivers said he was in support with the fines being public.

"I do like the fact, and I will say this, coaches have been publicly fined for years," Rivers said. "And now I think it's good when everybody is publicly fined. ...If you're going to make it public for one you should make it public for all. And I don't have a problem with that at all."


Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press

F30, yes, there are a lot of times when an official goes into intimidation mode. He wants all the attention on himself. He's a prima donna. More times than not, these looks are unnecessary and inapporpriate. I woul dbet that this is one of those times.

However, when an official has credibility with players and coaches, they can use looks and growls to get their point across without having to resort to borderline technical fouls. The good ones are also not terribly obvious about it.

When you treat players and coaches with respect, and have to go to one of these tools, the effect is swift and enormous. It's like hearing Mike Brady say the F word. It works in measured doses.

For those who say intimidation has no part in this game, and that T's should be used, that's fine. But this is a competitive game with type A people. That means at some point everyone has to take it and move on. Sometimes players and coaches get a shot in, especially on a 50/50 call. Other times the official needs to establish his presence, when a reaction is too much.

Do what you have to do, but I agree with you 100% that many people do the stare down when they shouldn't, or worse, can't.