How would this hypothetical be sorted out?
 

A1 shoots a 3-pointer and is fouled pretty hard by B1. The try is no good. B1 doesn't mean any harm, just the way he contacted A1, it was a hard foul. A1 takes exception to this and decides to deck B1 in the jaw. B1 is smart and walks away.

Before the punch, A1 would have had three free throw attempts coming. Obviously, though, A1 is ejected for fighting.

How is it handled from here? Does A1's substitute still get three free throws?

yes substitute must shoot FT. Then anyone from team B shoots Tech throws and B gets ball at Division line following final throw.

Why wouldn't he?

What if you called an intentional personal foul?
 

citing 4.19.3
A foul shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

If intentional foul was called, would it affect the procedures?

Would it still be 3 free throws for team A followed by 2 technical free throws for B plus B with the ball at the division line for a throw in?

The procedure is not altered simply because an excessive contact foul is called. This is still simply a false double foul: penalize in the order they ocurred. Don't forget to remove the ejected player before any fouls shots, though.

Yes.

Even before I read that A1 decks B1, I got the feeling of an intentional foul (for excessive contact) on B1. This is a good call when you must eject A1.

Obtain the substitute for A1 being ejected.

A1's substitute will be awarded three shots for B1's foul.

Then B-anyone shoots the two shots for the flagrant foul. B throw-in @ the DL.

The NCAA ruling is different
 

Here's how we'd proceed under NCAA rules, where T's work differently: Team B shoots two FTs for the T, then we go to POI, which is A1's substitute shooting 3 FTs. If the foul by B1 is ruled a common foul, then players occupy the lane spaces and play continues normally after the last FT. If the foul by B1 is ruled intentional, no one occupies the lane spaces and A gets a throw-in at the spot nearest where the foul occurred after the last FT.

Why isn't B ejected? 4-18-2 sure has an argument here.

4-18-2: An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

Maybe. However, strictly speaking, B1 possibly didn't attempt to start a fight. Our judgment; it's why we get paid.

I thought a flagrant dead ball contact included the throwin.

Don't have my book, but I thought there was a case play for this that basically said a borderline act that actually leads to a fight should be considered fighting as well.

NCAAM v. NCAAW

There was a case play in years past that showed a hard foul and a retalliation punch equaled a fight by both players.

I remember this as well. A borderline act would need to be clearly defined though. A hard foul (excessive contact) does that. It does lead to an unequal penalty, though. :mad:

Oddly enough, I was assigned a regional final for last night and I had an excessive contact foul (b1 against A1) where the contact did gather some attention by other A players.

Is this NCAA?

If this is NCAA-M, you have forgotten that the Flagrant Technical Foul by A1 (his punch to B1s' jaw) results in an ejection of A1 and a throw-in for Team B at a spot nearest the foul. (this occurs after the sub for A1 shoots the 3 FT's first....then B shoots 2 FT's for Flagrant Technical).



By rule, you do not use POI for an Intentional Technical Foul (contact that is deemed excessive during a dead ball) or for a Flagrant Technical Foul (an act that is deemed to be combative or severe contact)

Yep...don't have any NFHS stuff with me.

My mistake---I was using NCAAW rules, where you do go to POI after a flagrant T.

Okay, it's the spot nearest the foul, or the division line?

This is an out of date quote of the rule. 10-3.13-17 PENALTY changed this year. It applies to NCAAW only and now directs the use of POI after a flagrant T.

For NCAAM, the relevant rule is 10-5 RESUMPTION OF PLAY, which states that a single intentional or flagrant T resumes with a throw-in by the offended team at the division line. My mistake in my earlier post for not including this.

Sorry, I guess I should have mentioned it's NFHS rules in my OP

So what I'm gathering is, both players are ejected if I feel like B's actions are instigating a fight?

A1's sub gets three shots, then we play on?

A1's sub gets three, then B gets two, then B gets the ball at the division line. It would have to be a he11 of a foul for the initial foul to be ruled flagrant, even if A1 over reacts and punches him.

But if B is also ejected, would you not treat it like a double tech and go POI?

Well the question is which of B's actions are deemed the ejection worthy -- the hard foul that started the alteracation right? So we've got an intentional flagrant and a flagrant technical... Sounds like B still shoots and gets the ball..

Then you take away the three free throws. You're only calling B for one foul, right? Or does he get two for doing less than his opponent, who only gets one?

And, as bradford alludes to, B's foul was a flagrant personal followed by A's flagrant technical. This is a false double, penalized in order.

I should add here that in order for me to consider B's foul a flagrant due to the fight that ensued, it would have had to be bad enough for me to think about it without the fight. I don't want to penalize B with a flagrant just because A can't keep his head.

You are correct Lotto, I didn't even pay attention to the fact that 10-3 applies to NCAA-W only. My bad. :o

Rule 10-5 (MEN) CLASS A Unsporting Technical Infractions
Art 1. RESUMPTION OF PLAY: For any technical foul(s), play shall resume at the point of interruption except for a single intentional or a single flagrant technical foul. For a single intentional or a single flagrant technical foul, the ball shall be awarded to the offended team at a designated spot at the division line on either side of the playing court.

10-3 (WOMEN) Player/Substitute Technical Fouls
Art. 17 Fighting as in Rule 4-26.
PENALTY: (Arts. 13 through 17) Flagrant technical fouls.. Two free throws shall be awarded to any player on the offended
team, unless double fouls are assessed. For double flagrant technical fouls, no free throws are awarded. For any flagrant technical foul, the ball shall be awarded to the offended team at the point of interruption. When a single flagrant technical foul occurs during intermission for the second or any extra period, play shall resume with a throw-in to the offended team on either side of midcourt...