2009-2010 rule changes
 

With the season winding down, it's time for our almost annual thread regarding rule changes we'd like to see.

Here's an NF change I'd like to see. It's not a big deal, but it seems more equitable. Team A has team control in their backcourt. They request and are granted a timeout. When they subsequently inbound in the backcourt, why not have the 10 second count pick up from where it left off instead of resetting? What's the logic about them getting extra time to get the ball across just because they got a timeout?

Also (and I think I've suggested this every year since Dr. Naismith and I put up the first peach basket) - no overtimes. Of course, it doesn't affect me, since I don't allow them anyway. I'm just thinking of the rest of you. :D

Have all levels and all areas of the world play under ONE (1) set of rules.

That way everyone would be competitive not only locally but internationally as well.

This is FIBA's rule; with an 8-second limit to get across the DL.

It's a great rule.

I would hate that rule. Now we have to split hairs with what the count was. That sounds very silly to me. If we use that logic, why not start where you left off on 3 seconds, closely guarded or 5 seconds inbound violations? I do not see the 10 second rule as any different. I really do not want to argue with a coach that thinks 5 seconds went off and I have 3 seconds.

I know this is mostly a joke on your part. But as a general rule, I do not see the big deal with overtimes. I think close games are fun and make you a better official. Why are there so many people opposed to getting overtime games? Now that was a serious question. ;)

Peace

Nope. Not going to happen and would be silly.

Peace

1. Delayed entry to court after inbounding ball becomes a violation rather than a way to avoid OT. I think this would be called more often if the penalty were not so severe. It could be an exception to other delays in returning to the court.

2. Compression sleeves. The 'medical' loophole is a crock. They are decorative. Either outlaw them, make them legal, or make them legal complying with the other fashion police items.

3. TO by HC during dead ball only. [Genie, get back in the bottle.]

Back in the day, once you got to the point of transition [8 seconds on a 10 second count, or 4 seconds on a 5 second count], it was too late to have a time-out granted. Since that rule was deleted, it would seem Mark's suggestion is a re-incarnation of it.

With 3 years of FIBA under my belt now, I've found that the exact opposite is true. Coaches are pro-active in asking us how much time is left to get across half.

I am aware that there was once a rule. I just think it was a stupid rule. And it would be inconsistently applied and there would be debates over the time left. Again we need to understand that not everyone at the high school level is that bright to either understand the rule or implement such a rule. This is not the NBA that has a shot clock where this rule is married to the clock.

Peace

NO 10 second count for the Free Throw.

Has any one in the entire universe ever called this??????

I actually had one this year and didn't call it because I knew the coach would go nuts.

Could never happen. A player could then rightfully stand there forever with no recourse by the officials.

I saw it happen one time. The kid took an exceptionally long period of time and the coach said nothing. We still give the official crap that called it. He was completely right to call it, but it is so rare we have a little fun with him.

And if a coach cannot teach his kid to shoot a FT within 10 seconds, who cares what he/she thinks.

Peace

You don't call it because the rule is there.

Without it, some coach would have his player stand there for a couple of minutes so he could rest his players, have a mini-clinic with the other four players, glare at the officials, ...

My proposal: If there's a held ball (or any other reason to use the AP arrow) with 3 seconds or less to go in any quarter except the 4th, the team with the arrow can "decline" the posession and declare the quarter over. This prevents a team from getting a "wasted" AP posession near the end of a quarter, when they can't take advantage of the play.

A rule that states that if the clock is stopped, and if a timeout is requested (seemingly) at the same time that possession is gained, a set amount of time comes off the clock, such as 0.3s.

Never entered my mind, good one.

Coach subs in 12th man and haves him "push off" to receive the inbounds pass. Foul call, B gets the ensuing throw-in, but A keeps the arrow. It's only a problem if B is in the bonus. :)

In your sitch, the throw-in was not legally completed, so no arrow change.

I know! That's why I suggested it. B gets the meaningless possession, while A starts the next quarter.

I did call this once, in a JV girls game. The girl had the ball for 15 seconds and was still not making any attempt to prepare for the free throw. The Varsity coach went nuts to the point that at half time he came on the court to tell me and my partner how horrible we were. Had to throw him out for the remainder of the game.

I think that it is a necessary evil.

Another one that comes up from time to time is giving a team that's in the bonus the option of shooting free throws when fouled or just inbounding the ball. This eliminates the incentive for the other team to keep fouling when they are behind.

A1 is inbounding the ball and B2 holds A2 resulting in a foul. I would like to be able to use my judgment to tell if its a common foul for an intentional foul. I think that this type of foul would be called more constantly if the game official has both types of foul available to him rather than just the intentional foul.

Not a fan of this one. In a close gamy the team that is behind deserves to have an opportunity to get the ball back. With no shot clock the team that is leading may never have to lose possession. What is to stop a team from killing he clock after the first made basket? Seems wrong to me.

But you can't have a TO when the ball is live. :) I agree that the current 8 second rule (no reset just like the shot clock) is better than the old one (similar to NF's).

Ciao

Change the ruling about headbands, sweatband and hair control devices.....make them take them off.......

Not in FIBA, of course, since team A has ball control: no FT in any case (unless the foul was a U).

But if I were team A's coach, I'd prefer to let the opponents start the fourth quarter, keeping the arrow for a possible held ball near the end.

Ciao

I would go for this rule, other than at the end of the 4th Quarter or Overtime. Held ball with 2.9 seconds left, down by 1, and opponent gets the arrow (and ball). Game over? Just make them play the game out as normal. Your rule gives them the advantage of having the ball to start the next quarter, which is fine. But in this case, there is not going to be a next quarter.

I agree -- that's why I said "any quarter except the 4th"

Put a mechanic in that looks like a dog jumping through a hoop to signal over the back.
Then, officials who already use this non-signal would feel like trend-setters... real pioneers of the game.

I would also like to have a mechanic to point at my butt and my head at the same time. It would work well in this situation:
I call traveling on team A. We go the other way, and I call traveling on team B. There should be a mechanic there to let the crowd know I "just called it the same on both ends".

You can call a common foul here.

Changes
 

1. Get rid of all the uniform rules that officials have to enforce during a game.
2. Get rid of all uniform rules that officials have to enforce during a game.
3. Get rid of all rules that turn officials into the fashion police.

It might be interpreted as having your head up your butt.

Does that include the wagging tail (in our humanistic case, the wagging a**) as well as the hanging, panting tongue? :D

Hmmmm...this looks a little too close to the "I'm pulling this out of my a**" gesture I use with my co-worker once in a while, but I like it! :D

I would like to see "Flopping" become a delayed dead ball. Allow the offensive player A to continue his try for goal (usually a lay-up). If successful, score the goal. Whether successful of not, call the FLOP a violation and give the ball back to A.

This is supposed to be called a Technical Foul (due to unsporting act) but is rarely called due to the severity of the penalty. This is similar to the swinging of the elbows (without contact) and running out of bounds (to avoid a pick) which were both changed from a T to a violation a few years ago. Officials were also reluctant to call these acts Technical Fouls.

I think this change would clean up the Flopping when players decide they don't want to lose possession of the ball (again). Just an idea.

I'll bring up the one I've suggested for the last 2 years: allow a team to "decline" a free throw penalty and accept a throw in instead (at the spot of the foul). This would cut down on fouling at the end of the game and, more importantly, keep the game moving through the last 2 minutes if there is a foul.

Remove the option of state associations to expand or delete the coaching box. Make it as written in Rule 1 for everyone. It isn't just to let coaches run free. Even though we (in Texas) have a 6 foot box (that UIL won't change), we generally allow the coaches to move down the bench to talk to their players. Technically, we shouldn't, but I feel strongly we should allow this. Besides, we have all kinds of court sizes and where the coach is or should be is often hard to determine. Under the Fed rule as written, it isn't.

I've found a no-call works just as well for the borderline flop. Coaches know why you didn't call it, and invariably chew their players out for not staying with the play.

If it's obvious that he's faking being fouled, give one warning and move on. "Flopping" is not a T, "faking being fouled" is. There's a difference.

I have two:
Make it so the AP arrow only gives the team the ball at their disposal for a throwin, rather than a complete throwin. Flip the arrow when it's at the disposal of the thrower, as all action after that is a direct result of the throwin and in my opinion the AP has done it's job.

Close Pandora's box and take away the timeout request from the coaches during a live ball.

What exactly do you mean? First of all, they have all the opportunity in the world: steal. Second, neither team is deserving of anything other than a game fairly played according to the spirit and intent of the rules.

There are multiple problems in the current system that were either never originally intended or have grown into a huge problem. First, as the rules currently are, the committee is allowing to commit rules infractions specifically to gain an advantage. They allow fouls to stop the clock as an "acceptable coaching strategy." I disagree strongly with that, but be that as it may, change the rule so that it becomes less effective. Can you name any other sport that essentially allows infractions by teams to gain an advantage?

Second, with the advent of the 3 point shot 2 decades ago, teams gain a huge advantage by essentially trading a (potentially) 2 shot foul for a 3 point attempt (everything else going as planned). Unless we can come up with a third bonus free throw after, say, 12 fouls, or eliminate the 1 and 1 and go to 2 shots at 7 fouls and 3 shots at 10 (something I'd be willing to discuss), then this is nothing but an advantage for a team that, again, commits a rules infraction.

Finally, these games are taking too damn long. Games with 32 playing minutes are often taking 3 times that to complete. Either due to coaching or other factors, the game is much more physical than it was 2 decades essentially forcing us to call more fouls. Teams with 15 players don't really fear foul-outs much, and because free throw shooting, by and large, is so abysmal, teams don't really concern themselves with foul counts. The committee has got to step back and say, "hey, this isn't where we want this sport to go."

I haven't had these problems with the end-of-game fouling.

1. Normally, you only get one or two of these strategic fouls before it either works or backfires. After that, the game is usually too close or too far. And, it's a small percentage of games where this is even attempted.

2. I can't recall the last game I had that took an hour and a half, must be a regional thing.

I think you're attempting to solve a problem that is purely philosophical. :)

Two halves.

Stop clock in the 2nd half (see above) under a minute.

How about held ball goes to the defence? Keep the arrow for the quarters but reward the defence for their hard work.
Player control fouls gone, all become team control fouls.
How can you commit a player control foul when you don't have the ball anymore. (airbourn shooter after release) This needs to change to be more like college.

:)

http://www.cityofholland.com/ciholla...s/windmill.jpg

So, B can foul before the bonus, A will still get the throw-in for the foul, but now they also lose the arrow, even though the throw-in was never completed?

Or, you can use the following quote:

I was going to specifically request you not post that picture when I wrote that. :D

I also caught the irony as I wrote to Texas Aggie. The difference is I'm admitting it's philosophical.

And, my point is that the throwin does not have to be completed, it only needs to be started for the arrow to have done it's job. I admit, however, that the committee wants there to be a full throwin following each AP opportunity before it switches.

I will say, however, that it's a bit inconsistent to reverse the arrow on an offensive violation but not an offensive foul.

BTW, I just realized the arrow would not switch if the offense commits a kicking violation before the throwin is over. It only switches on a legal touch or a "throwin violation."

I'm surprise Mark didn't list no Overtime!! But anyway, I think time-outs should only be requested from a player on the court and not the coach. Also, I like to see pregames like the one is college where the players meet we go over the rules with them then we go and meet the coaches.

Maybe you think so, but the NFHS disagrees with you. According to the NFHS, they're exactly the same thing.

See POE #4B labelled <b>"Flopping"</b> in the NFHS 2004-05 Rule Book. Note the sentence there-in saying "Coaches can have a positive impact by appropriately dealing with players who fake being fouled." The penalty for "flopping" is also set out as a technical foul.

Good point, I made my point poorly. My point is that many officials feel that falling early, or falling without any contact, is the same as faking being fouled. They are not the same.

Too often I see those actions referred to as "flopping," and I just fell into the same trap.

So you didn't read the opening post? :confused:

Why is this one missing?
 

Usually, when we have a post about NF rule changes, at least one person suggests allowing players along the FT lane to go in on the release. How do you guys feel about that?

I think they should wait till the ball hits the floor. ;)

How do you determine who was on defense off a rebound? Team control ends on the release. Dick Vitale is in need of a new idea. Not that a new idea for him will be a good one.

This. A lot. This would keep our attention where it needs to be: on the floor.

Can You Hear Barbra Streisand Singing In The Background ???
 

Close, but no cigar. It was "change of status".

"Dream A Little Dream" (The Mamas And The Papas)
 

Agree.

No more jump balls to start the game, or overtime. Flip a coin, or give the ball to the visitors to start the game, and use the alternating possession arrow for the rest of the game.

Coaches may not request a timeout. Only one of the players on the court.

I don't smoke.

Move Onto The Next Booth ...
 

Well then, you can't select a prize from any shelf.

Two rules
 

1. Allow players along the lane to go on release

2. Allow the 28' coaching box and then enforce. The 6' definitely does not work( KS ), the 14' works much better ( MO ).

How about resetting the team fouls at the start of each quarter and shooting the bonus on the 4th team foul of the quarter (automatic bonus on the 6th)? You still get 6 common fouls in each half where you don't shoot the 1-and-1, but this way you ensure that you're never shooting the bonus for an entire quarter. I hate getting to the second quarter and saying, "Ok, 1-and-1 the rest of the way".

I'd also like to see the team foul reset at the beginning of each extra period, as well, but I don't think that would ever fly.

Love it. Had that happen a few times this year. Felt bad for the "wasted" arrow (oh gosh, did I really just say I 'felt bad' for a team:eek: )

What's an "extra period"? I know a phrase like that would really frighten my wife. :eek:

Still Got The Old Twinkle In Your Eye, Eh Padgett ???
 

Don't you mean a missed period?

What happens on a held ball after shot try, there is no defense because there is No team control after the shot is released.

How can A1 jump and release a try and then be fouled before he returns to the floor and be awarded free throws?

There's a reason they stopped this very brief and silly experiment in the NCAA.

I love calling fouls #3964 whose game jersey is red on the left half and white on the right. The only hard part about working games with that team is I have to make them show me their backs every time I call a foul as their shirts don't have numbers on the front. Some officials get confused but they just have the players take of their shirts and switch to a less confusing uniform within the visual confines of the court.

1. I've been thinking the same thing most of this thread. Doesn't the NBA do something similar? This could also help in speeding the game up, so we're not shooting 1 and 1 at the start of the second and fourth quarters. I'm in full support of this one.

2. Only let coaches call TO during dead balls. I hate the misunderstandings that happen when they're allowed to call TO during live balls, and I don't like being distracted by it either.

That is not considered a player control foul. That particular foul is on the defence and therefor a foul in the act of shooting. Has nothing to do with player control which is foul by the guy who HAD the ball and now does not. Help me out if I'm only seeing my side of this.:)

I'm not familiar with your rules, however, I'll throw a couple of points into this thread:

1. FIBA will be moving to an Americanized set of rules in 2010 and 2012. Starting with a no-charge semi circle, a rectangular key-way and a 14 and 24 second reset on our shot clock depending on what occurs.

Secondly, I agree with giving a heldball to the defensive team, however, if the held ball is occured after a looseball situation - including a shot, we should simply consult the AP arrow.

Thirdly, I don't know how often this happens in your neck of the woods, and whether you all have a rule about it, but heres what I'd like to see:

Player A1 is close to a boundary line, with the ball, closely guarded by B1. A1 is stuck with no pass, and cannot dribble, so they throw the ball, intentionally off B1. In my book, this should be a turnover by A1, and not an out of bounds by B1...

Scraps, I'll get in your corner here!

One of our local Rec Leagues had a B13/15 Division that didn't have enough coaches/players to make up another team(s) - so they went with nine or ten players per team and increased the length of the quaters to NINE minutes so everyone would get sufficient playing time. You talk about some hack fests, Double Bonus early and often, and lengthy games....... :eek: And NO we didn't get paid extra!

Point Taken ...
 

Well played.

NCAA tried it -- it didn't work. The offense's job is to keep the ball; the defense's job is to get the ball. Neither quite succeeded, so give each "1/2 a cookie" -- one gets the ball; the other gets the arrow.

How is this different (other than from a purely definitional sense) from what we have now?

Because the action that led to the foul occurred while the player still had PC. I'd be more in favor of having NCAAM switch back the the NCAAW / FED rule on this.

Fed: Add shot clock...team control on throw-in when at the disposal of thrower

NCAA-M: Airborn shooter to match Fed rule.

10 Second Count
 

Get rid of the 10 second back court count all together. You have a shot clock...who cares if they take 20 seconds to get the ball across half court? That rule was put in place before shot clocks were used to prevent the old 4 corner stall.

I assume you're talking NCAA.

I'd like to see the coaching box rule expanded so that when the HC gets a DIRECT T, not only does he/she lose the box, but must wear a sign that says: "I'm a howler monkey and got whacked for it!" :p

As fueled by discussion in another thread, add "official gives the ball to the wrong team" to the correctable error list. Although I have never seen this happen at a crucial point in any game, if it did, obviously the consequences could be huge.

And the sign is stapled to his forehead.

I brought these same things up last year and, I think, the year before. It was based on my experience in games, so 3 years of game experience is not "purely philosophical," although I think you meant, "hypothetical." I certainly don't claim to speak for your experience, so don't think that just because you haven't had this happen to you, it doesn't exist. Let me put it this way: due in large part to the increased physical nature of the game (and our reactions or lack thereof to it), I have had serious thoughts of whether I want to continue working basketball. I still love the game, but I hate where its going and from my perspective, if the committee doesn't get control of some of these issues (physical play, foul counts, game time, etc.), we're going to have some real problems down the road. While you may agree or disagree with my interpretation of these issues, but given that, does that sound like I'm presenting a hypothetical?

One thing I didn't mention that would help if the "decline" rule was put in was situations where the team ahead by 3 late would foul the opponent to keep them from hitting a 3 point shot. We've seen this a LOT (or at least, the attempts) over the last 3 years and coaches I've talked to think its essentially a required strategy.

Not an expense a lot of school districts would like to add to their budget.

What is the def of player control? A pass and crash is similar and that is only a team control foul. Granted no shot attempt but they still jump to pass and commite the foul after the realease and have no player control, so ruled a team control. Thoughts? How do you guys change color of sentances and bold type words?

No, I meant philosophical in that I don't see it as a problem. You are right, though, in that my experience shouldn't be used as a blanket. Neither, however, should yours.

I don't see 2 or 3 extra fouls in 1 out of every 4 or 5 games as a problem. If you see it happen more often than that and more pronounced, maybe it's just your area.

Most teams I've had have gone to a more agressive steal attempt rather than purposefully fouling.

I would like to see this added to CE list UNTIL a change of possession (caused by a try or turnover).

Further, I would like to see the CE modified to indicate that IF a team received a direct benefit from an erroneously awards inbounds (i.e. the team scored during that possession), the error of NOT awarding free throws would be ignored since the team already scored two/three points via the inbounds possession.

I would like to see players allowed to step into the lane on release --except for the FT shooter. I have never understood why we feel that there is any more "rough" play on a rebound when the shot is taken from 15' directly in front of the basket when the players are placed in a specific order rather than during ANY OTHER SHOTS on the court.

If we are going to keep three players along the lane, I would like to move the spaces down 18" from their current location (give the schools three or four years of lead time to handle the stripping/repainting of the lines). This would put the defending team slightly closer to the basket, but not as cfar as they are today. This would also allow for the reintroduction of the block in a meaningful position.

I would like to see the backcourt violation provisions modified to indicate that if the defending team makes contact with the ball, the backcourt provision would not apply until the team has gained PLAYER CONTROL with ALL THREE POINTS IN THE FRONTCOURT. In essence, this change would significantly decrease the number of last-touch-first-touch backcourt violations.

Modify the backcourt "exceptions" on throw-ins/jump balls to include all players UNTIL A PLAYER HAS ESTABLISHED PLAYER CONTROL. This modification would allow for an offensive player to catch the ball while in the air from frontcourt to backcourt to have the "exception" even if another offensive player or defensive player tipped the ball (thus, officially ending the throw-in and the exception). The same provisions would apply for the jump ball thus allowing a player to catch a tap by jumping from his/her frontcourt, catching the ball in the air and landing in the backcourt when the ball has either made contact with the floor (thus, ending the jump ball and its exception provisions) or an opponent (thus, ending the jump ball and its exception provisions). These provisions are the way 95% of the coaches THINK the rules are now, thus the change would actually only be a change for officials and 5% of the coaches.

Either allow any color of headband OR ONLY allow the primary color of the uniform (it is not fair that only the cream colored pre-wrap is legal -- make all pre-wrap colors legal or none of them legal UNLESS they match the uniform).

Either allow shooting sleeves -- with color provisions required -- OR completely disallow them. The medical "loophole" is big enough to drive any shooting sleeve through. Either prohibit them completely or simply allow them so long as they are the primary color of the uniform or white (this would allow one color for home/road combined).

Change delaying entry onto court into a violation instead of a technical foul (I like this idea as many others have suggested).

Expand the coaches box to 28'. Don't allow the coaches to complain any more than they do, but if they are coaching, let them stand where they would like.

I agree with Bob Jenkins' proposed change in concept, but would like to lessen the time. If there is less than the time to catch and shoot a shot, the team could pass (i.e. less than .3 seconds).

This is not completely correct. All colors of pre-wrap are legal, they just have to match or fit the subscribed colors listed by the rulebook. But I have seen black, red, blue and tan pre-wrap.

Peace

Appropriate mechanic needing to be the partner who did not whack him gets to do the stapling. In three-man, rotate again so the third official is the "innocent" party and gets to watch the coach bleed to death behind him/her. ;)

You're assuming coaches are flesh and blood creatures. I have evidence they are really aliens. Do these look like human beings to you?

http://splog.nationallampoon.com/fil...ps-coaches.jpg

You could give them the entire length of the court and they would still violate the coaching box. They would be on the floor more than they are now.

Rules are made to be broken according to the coaches mindset. JMO

I second this one.

If a team plays with 4 players (following a TO or substitution), then they continue to play with 4 until the next opportunity to substitute.

I'll take it a step further. I suggest that when a coach whines about a rule and is incorrect, he/she has to wear a dunce cap for the remainder of the game.

I see it now, no more coaches complaining about rules unless they are 1000% sure they know what the rule actually is.

Eliminate 8 minute quarters and go to 16 minute halves.

I like this, but think it could and should be done more thoroughly. It would also be simpler, just make the exception apply to all situations where team control gets established in the air.
Defense, throwin, after a throwin but before team control gets established, jump balls, rebounds.

As JRut said, your impression of the headband rule is incorrect. Currently, .

Although I haven't had much problem with this rule, I think that perhaps it could use some tweaking. I don't care what color the headband is, to be honest. It should be required that all the headbands for every individual is the same/similar. Make it simple.

-Josh

And they wouldn't even need a chin strap to keep it on, since their heads are pointed anyway.

http://www.tailored.com.au/uploaded_...cap-722311.jpg

4. Get rid of all officials who do not enforce the rules.

That was a scary montage of coaches, errrr, aliens. :eek: If they don't bleed, then they ooze whatever it is they ooze. Still a sloppy mess in the end. :D

I ref in New York - I keep forgetting that most of the rest of the country does not use a shot clock.

Sometimes I wish we had a shot clock in Houston...Slow the game down a little bit.

If this were the problem, I wouldn't be on here. We have games where the team down starts fouling with 2 and 3 MINUTES left in the game. And its more than in 20% of the games -- more like 50-70%. Last year, a team down by 15 started fouling with about 2 minutes left, plus they'd saved their timeouts (which is fair enough), and the last few minutes of the game lasted close to 20-25 minutes. They damn near won, so coaches (at least around here) think this is a viable strategy.

I realize other ares may be different, but I don't think that's an argument against the idea itself. I propose a choice that may not be used in your area due to what you see in your games. But it sure would be used in mine.

JRut,
My point is that cream (black, white and primary uniform color) is singled out while a purple prewrap (worn by the home team -- even though their secondary color is purple) is illegal. Cream (and black and white) get a unique preferential treatment. The other colors must match a uniform.

I like that. I also don't see why a team can't play with 4 inlieu of 5 if THEY choose to do that.....

Rule Changes
How about eliminating the long switch in two man mechanics

Without us its only recess

My wish list
 

Pie in the sky, but hey, I can dream like everyone else, right :D

1-17: Also include an 8 foot substitution box (a la the NBA) for substitutes to report to before they can enter a game.

2-11: Make the penalty for removing the official book from the table that of the NCAA.

4-10: Add language similar to NCAA to clarify that if an offensive player is between a player with the ball and the defensive player, No closely guarded situation exists.

4-12: Have team control match up with NCAA.