FIBA Substitutions
 

Hi All,

Just after some clarification to a situation that occurred in our local competition on Friday night.

Team A has no substitutes sitting on their bench, and is playing on the court with 5 players. Coach requests that we sub one of their players off onto the bench so that he can talk to him.

I believe this is not allowed, as it places the opposing team at a disadvantage (by resting on of their players)... however my partner makes the decision that this can happen.

I am aware that a substitution can only be requested by a player, so the coaches request should have been denied anyway, but my partner overlooked this...

Can anyone clarify whether this sub is allowed or not, overlooking Article 19.3.1?

It's not a substitution. But there's nothing which prevents a team from being with less than five players on the court (after the beginning of the game).

A player might need a rest, why should we not allow it? The other team is clearly not at disadvantage, because they'll be playing five against four. This player can come back into the court only when the ball is dead and the clock is not running.

Ciao

Thanks for that - clearly I'd been educated incorrectly at some stage.

How does a player substitute if they aren't on the bench already though?

At a dead ball and stopped clock a player can ask the official to go to the bench because of an injury: the concept of injury is quite liberal.

Ciao

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I know that his is a FIBA question, but for most of us that deal with NFHS rules, would this be allowed? I don't think so, but I'm open to other opinions.

No. If you have 5, you must play 5.

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Kind of like, "Smoke em if you have em".

From the FIBA Rules Book:

4.2 Rule
4.2.1 Each team shall consist of:
• No more than twelve (12) team members entitled to play, including a captain.
• A coach and, if a team wishes, an assistant coach.
• A maximum of five (5) team followers who may sit on the team bench and have special responsibilities, e.g. manager, doctor, physiotherapist, statistician, interpreter, etc.
4.2.2 Five (5) players from each team shall be on the playing court during playing time and may be substituted.
4.2.3 A substitute becomes a player and a player becomes a substitute when:
• The official beckons the substitute to enter the playing court.
• During a time-out or an interval of play, a substitute requests the substitution to the scorer.

It is my reading of FIBA R4.2.2 that the Team in the OP must play with five players if it has five eligible players.

MTD, Sr.

21.1 Rule
A team shall lose a game by default if, during the game, the team has fewer than two (2) players on the playing court ready to play.

Therefore it's allowed to have fewer that five players on the court. We are not to judge why a coach wants a player to sit on the bench: if the coach says that the player cannot play, that's enough. If there is no substitute, they will play four against five. Where's the problem? Do you know whether that player suffers from asthma? On the contrary, I see problems in forcing a player to remain on the court. The official in this case is assuming the responsibility of the decision.

Ciao

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Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: I always knew that you were somewhat of an expert in NFHS rules, and in NCAA rules, but I didn't know that you were also a FIBA guy. How do you keep each rule set straight? And the mechanics? We have one official on our local board who also officiates all three rule sets, and in fact, officiated at the Olympic Games in Beijing this past summer. How do you guys do this? Now, where is my remote control?

They're Type A personalities. :p

Sorry, eg-italy, but I read it Mark's way. If they have 5, they shall play five. "Shall" is the same as "must" with the rules.

Rule 21.1 would mean that if they are down to one eligible player, they would forfeit.

If they want to rest a player, nothing prevents that player from sitting down on the court for a short time.

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Same thing applies to officials. That's what I do, when I need to catch my breath. My partner can handle things by himself, or herself, for a few moments.

So the general consensus is that the substitute shall be denied under FIBA 4.2.2?

Also, to clear it up, the player wasn't injured - the coach requested that we substitute him because he missed an easy fast break..

Edit: Then again, its not really a substitution, because no one is replacing the player on the court - in this example, the player on the court is simply being 'scratched' onto the bench.

So if we look at 19.1, "A substitution is an interruption of the game requested by the substitute to become a player."

It basically says that a SUBSTITUTE must become a PLAYER, and there is nothing stating a vice versa situation...

does this change anything?

Cleefy

"Coach, if he's not injured, he has to play."
Let the coach make his decision.

You cannot substitute a player out if you have no substitute to go into the game. If the coach only has 5 players on court and wants to have a player come off and have a rest, he can only do so with the referee's OK and during a dead ball period as leaving the court without permission is a Technical infringement. He/she will still need the referee's permission to go back into the game during a dead ball period. That is how I would handle it.

As I understand it, if the player is fit to play, he must remain on the court. I think the word substitution says it all. If there is no player to come into the game as a substitute, how can you effect a substitution?The team consists of five players on court not four and a bench sitter. An injury to one of the five players would be the only way to alter this.Article 4.2.2 is as close as it gets.

What is the NFHS ruling on playing with four with a fifth available? I couldn't find it in the thread.

If a fifth is available, that person must be a player on the court.

^^ And what if they refuse to play with 5?

This situation is not normal and is not covered in the rules or the casebook. The only reference I have to this is rule 46.13 "The refereee shall have the power to make decisions on any point not specifically covered by these rules" and rule 4.2.2 does not really apply as there is no substitute to go into the game.
cheers

That's exactly my opinion: we can't read in a player's or coach's mind. If the coach wants a player to sit on the bench, reducing their team to four, we can't force this player to play.

Where's the advantage for this team? Being four against five is a (voluntarily chosen) disadvantage. If they have reasons to do it, it's their choice.

"Objection!" will shout M. T. DeNucci senior (my paesano :)), "The coach said it's for talking to the player." Well, that player might suffer from some disease and they don't want to tell the world about it.

I know that the rules say that "five players shall be on the court", but this assumes the players are apt to play.

Ciao

Yet when we take into account 5.3

"If the injured player cannot continue to play immediately (within approximately 15 seconds) or, if he receives treatment, he must be substituted unless the team is reduced to fewer than five (5) players on the playing court"

Doesn't this suggest that there must be five players on the court even during injury. Of course this is not common sense - if a player was to be so sick that I could physically tell they couldn't play, I would allow them to be benched.

However, eg-italy, like you said officials shouldn't attempt to read the mind of the coach - but if the coach says that they want to bench the player because they missed an easy shot, they generally mean it - coaches don't understand how to deceive us properly.

If you can find a solid rule that states a coach could take their fifth player off, let me know - otherwise, rather than letting it come down to interpretation, lets just throw it under the elasticity of the rules and powers of the umpire.

Under your ruling on the issue, a coach could sub off their third, and fourth player as well, and play with two on the court - under FIBA 21.1 the game is lost by default when the team has fewer than 2 players on the playing court, ready to play.

Would you allow them to play with two?

This means that they can keep the injured player, who has recovered, in case they have no substitute. If they have a player available, they must do a substitution.

Well, not every coach. :)

Why not? It's their choice. Of course, elastic power is used in this case. But the official should not permit to make a travesty of the game. (Is this correct English?)

Common sense should never be left at home. :)

Ciao

Almost. "Permit" generally takes a direct object, so "...permit anyone to make a travesty of the game" would be better.

Prego.