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ChuckElias Mon Jun 17, 2002 03:35pm

I don't usually post about my partners, but last night's partner embodied many of the stereotypes that we complain about amongst ourselves on this board.

First, though, I have to admit that I was late to the game site due to the unbelievably heavy traffic. I arrived at the site only 10 minutes prior to the scheduled start.

My partner was wearing pants with a belt, never a good sign, and they were the wrong color, to boot. So right away, I was leery of him. Here's just a sampling of his actual calls last night:

Rebounding foul: "#34 is climbing!!" (while giving the "over the back" signal);

3 seconds: "33's in there too long!!"

Ball slips out of shooter's hands OOB: "You looooooooost it! White!"

Travel: "He stepped before the contact!!"

Not good times :(

Chuck

Oz Referee Mon Jun 17, 2002 05:23pm

Maybe I am feeble......
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I don't usually post about my partners, but last night's partner embodied many of the stereotypes that we complain about amongst ourselves on this board.

First, though, I have to admit that I was late to the game site due to the unbelievably heavy traffic. I arrived at the site only 10 minutes prior to the scheduled start.

My partner was wearing pants with a belt, never a good sign, and they were the wrong color, to boot. So right away, I was leery of him. Here's just a sampling of his actual calls last night:

Rebounding foul: "#34 is climbing!!" (while giving the "over the back" signal);

3 seconds: "33's in there too long!!"

Ball slips out of shooter's hands OOB: "You looooooooost it! White!"

Travel: "He stepped before the contact!!"

Not good times :(

Chuck

Chuck, couple of questions:

What's wrong with wearing a belt? I take it that this is not part of the uniform in North America.

"3 seconds: "33's in there too long!!" - what's wrong with this?

Maybe I have more to learn than I thought - or perhaps it's just another example of my feebleness.... :)

Mark Padgett Mon Jun 17, 2002 05:32pm

Actually, sometimes I have found it to be good game management (not that that's more important than rules knowledge ;) ) to yell, "Travel first" when there was a travel a split second before a foul involving the ball handler. I think it's an indication that I'm not making the "Richie Powers" call of travel to avoid deciding between a charge and a block.

ChuckElias Mon Jun 17, 2002 05:53pm

Re: Maybe I am feeble......
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Oz Referee
Chuck, couple of questions:

What's wrong with wearing a belt? I take it that this is not part of the uniform in North America.

Although it's not specifically prohibited in the rulebook, wearing a belt at the high school level or above is generally frowned upon around here. Beltless (and loopless) pants are strongly encouraged.

Quote:

"3 seconds: "33's in there too long!!" - what's wrong with this?
Well, for one thing, he never said the "3 seconds" part. Just "33's in there too long!" Secondly, even if he had said the "3 seconds" part, he should've just stopped there. If you need to indicate the number, I suppose that's ok after announcing the violation, but just give the number. One important rule of thumb (in my book, anyway) is "The less said, the better". Say the bare minimum and then shut up. This even applies when trying to talk to a coach for "game management" purposes.

Chuck

zebraman Mon Jun 17, 2002 07:18pm

Most of the refs in our association wear black reffing pants with a belt. They seem to fit better and I think they look more athletic. Those beltless pants make the older guys look they have no butt or like they maybe had an accident. :-)

But I too could do without your partner's "play by play."

Z

Dan_ref Mon Jun 17, 2002 07:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias


My partner was wearing pants with a belt, never a good sign, and they were the wrong color, to boot. So right away, I was leery of him....

Who the heck wears a belt with gym shorts??? :p

BktBallRef Mon Jun 17, 2002 08:13pm

Belted pants? :(

Oz Referee Mon Jun 17, 2002 09:14pm

Chuck, thanks for the reply. Here in Oz I have never even seen a pair of beltless pants - all referees wear black dress pants with a black belt.

JRutledge Mon Jun 17, 2002 11:23pm

Get with the times.
 
Belted pants are like wearing a shirt with a collar. Those are things of the past. And yes, if you cannot change with the times and wear a uniform that higher level officials are wearing, then what else are you not changing as time goes on. That is how you are judged around here. I am sure it is the same in other places. But then again, what the hell do I know.

Peace

dblref Tue Jun 18, 2002 05:50am

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman
Most of the refs in our association wear black reffing pants with a belt. They seem to fit better and I think they look more athletic. Those beltless pants make the older guys look they have no butt or like they maybe had an accident. :-)

But I too could do without your partner's "play by play."

Z

Us older guys (btw, we prefer "mature") like the look of not having a butt. Although, we sometimes counter that with having a "slightly oversized" paunch.

zebraman Tue Jun 18, 2002 08:21am

<i>Belted pants are like wearing a shirt with a collar.</i>

Not true around here. Collared shirts not allowed, belted pants allowed.

<i>Those are things of the past. And yes, if you cannot change with the times and wear a uniform that higher level officials are wearing, then what else are you not changing as time goes on.</i>

So long as an official looks sharp, we judge them on their calls, communication and game management. But what do we know? I've seen some "higher level" officials with a gut that hangs out. Should I add more fat to my diet?

<i>That is how you are judged around here. I am sure it is the same in other places. But then again, what the hell do I know.</i>

Maybe not as much as you think.
Perhaps things are different in some places than others. Perhaps things are different at the high school level than at college.

Z



[Edited by zebraman on Jun 18th, 2002 at 08:32 AM]

Doug Tue Jun 18, 2002 08:46am

yup, collorless shirts and beltless pants are what we wear. But, soon collegiate bb officials will be required to wear pleated beltless pants...:(

BktBallRef Tue Jun 18, 2002 09:28am

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman
<i>That is how you are judged around here. <U>I am sure it is the same in other places.</u> But then again, what the hell do I know.</i>

Maybe not as much as you think.
Perhaps things are different in some places than others.

Here's how it works Z. When his area does things differently, it's because they're unique and special. He tells us all the time that things are done differently in diferent places. Yet, when his area does things the same as they do in other places, he's sure it's the same EVERYWHERE! Go figure! :(

zebraman Tue Jun 18, 2002 09:57am

<i> When his area does things differently, it's because they're unique and special.</i>

Do I need to add a new entry to "Rut's Rules?" Sure sounds like it. :-)

Z

BktBallRef Tue Jun 18, 2002 10:06am

No need. The rules are constantly changing. You'll run out of white-out, trying to keep up! :D

JRutledge Tue Jun 18, 2002 01:53pm

Add it!!!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman
<i> When his area does things differently, it's because they're unique and special.</i>

Do I need to add a new entry to "Rut's Rules?" Sure sounds like it. :-)

Z

If you are a HS varsity official or a college official in my area, you would be about the only official that wears pants with a belt. You can call them my rules, but you might not work if you wear a shirt with a collar and pants with a belt.

Just the facts Jack, just the facts.

Peace

AK ref SE Tue Jun 18, 2002 02:03pm

I have seen both in my area, to me the only people who notice belt or no belt, collar or no collar are other officials. What I have noticed though....if you have a belly or look physically fit....... is what the spectators notice.
Just my opinion and maybe just my area!

AK ref SE

ChuckElias Tue Jun 18, 2002 03:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by AK ref SE
What I have noticed though....if you have a belly or look physically fit....... is what the spectators notice.
Just my opinion and maybe just my area!

Definitely not just your area, AK. I attended Hoop Mountain camp one year and Mickey Crowley was there. He's the assignor for the A-10 conference. He's funny as anything and he was giving us a little talk. He patted himself on the tummy and said, "Gentlemen, you are looking at the last of the fat officials". Cracked us up. But he was dead serious. At my USBL tryout/clinic, the assignor told one league ref flat-out that he'd put on too much weight to come back and work the league again. Lay off the junk!! (wish I could :( )

Chuck

AK ref SE Tue Jun 18, 2002 04:20pm

We are dealing with perceptions...If you look overweight, people think that you are slow or sloppy, doesn't matter how good you are.
Just a quick story on perceptions. I was in class with this guy. He did not look athletic in the least. He wanted to go for a little run. I thought I was in shape because I was reffing several games a night, several days a week. We start jogging (to me a little run is a mile or two). I was dying at mile three! Find out this guy is a super marathon runner, a little run to him is 10-20 miles.

I guess my point is! Just like opinions! It is hard to change an opinion or a perception, because they belong to everyone else!

AK ref SE

LarryS Tue Jun 18, 2002 05:01pm

I have been told that in my area, overweight officials will have more trouble getting the HS varsity assignments, but can get there by being a good official. A varsity coach may go to the JV game and think negatively of an overweight official, but can be turned around by their ability. Basically, you have to work to overcome the pre-conceived notion that a fat guy can't officiate. If you're good, they will want you on your game.

As far as belt/no-belt, chapter doesn't have a policy. However, all varsity refs wear beltless, pleated slacks (funny how that works out).

AK ref SE Tue Jun 18, 2002 05:15pm

Even officials want the lastest style!

ChuckElias Tue Jun 18, 2002 09:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by AK ref SE
Even officials want the lastest style!
Not me. I hate the pleated look. Blech.

rainmaker Tue Jun 18, 2002 11:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by AK ref SE
Even officials want the lastest style!
Not me. I hate the pleated look. Blech.

Pleated pants are much better, though, for those of us with "baby bellies".

I still think I get the trophy for working with a partner who showed up to do his games in a striped shirt with "Foot Locker" still stitched onto the pocket!! Merciful Heavens!

ChuckElias Wed Jun 19, 2002 07:39am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
I still think I get the trophy for working with a partner who showed up to do his games in a striped shirt with "Foot Locker" still stitched onto the pocket!!
Holy cow!! Why would you invite that kind of abuse on yourself?!?!?!?!

Doug Wed Jun 19, 2002 07:59am

HA! That is pretty sad... What level of competition was it? And were his pants pleated...:)?

dblref Wed Jun 19, 2002 08:36am

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by AK ref SE
Even officials want the lastest style!
Not me. I hate the pleated look. Blech.

As Mikey said, "Try it, you'll like it." I have gone to the beltless pleated pants and I ain't never going back to the other side. I'm 6'5" about 220lbs and IMHO, I think they look neat and professional.

bard Wed Jun 19, 2002 09:23am

Personally, if their fly is zipped and their seat ain't ripped, we're off to a good start!

;-)

BktBallRef Wed Jun 19, 2002 09:50am

Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by AK ref SE
Even officials want the lastest style!
Not me. I hate the pleated look. Blech.

As Mikey said, "Try it, you'll like it." I have gone to the beltless pleated pants and I ain't never going back to the other side. I'm 6'5" about 220lbs and IMHO, I think they look neat and professional.

Agreed. I didn't like that way they looked either. But once I wore a pair, there was no turning back. There's more room in the thighs and knees. Just what I need for my blazing speed!! :)

In NC, beltless slacks and v-neck shirts are required. The only options are pleated or western cut slacks and mesh, polyester, or cotton/poly shirts.

Dan_ref Wed Jun 19, 2002 09:53am

Quote:

Originally posted by bard
Personally, if their fly is zipped and their seat ain't ripped, we're off to a good start!

;-)

Reminds of the time a few yrs ago when my fly broke on
my sansabelts during a girls hs game. It was pretty obvious
even with my black "underthingies". One of the few times
I did not have a spare pair of pants in my bag, when
I got home that night I threw a handful of safety pins
into the bag.

Dan_ref Wed Jun 19, 2002 09:55am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef


Agreed. I didn't like that way they looked either. But once I wore a pair, there was no turning back. There's more room in the thighs and knees. Just what I need for my blazing speed!! :)


I'm sure those pants rustle & crack like a flag in a
windstorm as you run by! :)

AK ref SE Wed Jun 19, 2002 11:41am

Pleated-unpleated, belts- no belts, collared-no collared,
what next shoes----slip-ons, shoe laces, velco!?!?!?!?
Socks-single, double, support, nylons, long short...to many choices....and iw as worried about calling a good game or good game management!!

AK ref SE

BktBallRef Wed Jun 19, 2002 12:31pm

It's all about being uniformed.

How stupid would it look for one official to have belted slacks and a collared shirt while his partner is wearing beltless and a v-neck?

I, personally, don't see a problem with an association requiring all officials to be dressed alike.

Jurassic Referee Wed Jun 19, 2002 01:30pm

[/QUOTE]

Just what I need for my blazing speed!! :)

[/B][/QUOTE]Did you use your "blazing speed" in a game in Evansville yesterday,Tony? I see that they hit 5.0 on the Richter scale! :p

When you hit 5.0,you know you got PRESENCE!!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 19th, 2002 at 01:34 PM]

JRutledge Wed Jun 19, 2002 02:09pm

I bet Z is proud.
 
We are having a great discussion over the ins and out over rules knowledge. How in the world did pants become part of the discussion? :D

Peace

bard Wed Jun 19, 2002 02:12pm

Because rules knowledge and game management are irrelevent if you don't have your pants one!

JRutledge Wed Jun 19, 2002 02:21pm

You need pants?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by bard
Because rules knowledge and game management are irrelevent if you don't have your pants one!
Listening to some here, you would think you could officiate in a Foot Locker shirt and sweat pants and be considered a great partner as long as you got a 98 on the Part 1 and a 99 on the Part 2.

I guess that is why a D1 Official told me that officiating was much more than blowing the whistle. ;)

Peace

ChuckElias Wed Jun 19, 2002 02:27pm

Re: You need pants?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Listening to some here, you would think you could officiate in a Foot Locker shirt and sweat pants and be considered a great partner as long as you got a 98 on the Part 1 and a 99 on the Part 2.
No, I wouldn't. Who are you listening to? :confused:

Chuck

JRutledge Wed Jun 19, 2002 02:51pm

Re: Re: You need pants?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Listening to some here, you would think you could officiate in a Foot Locker shirt and sweat pants and be considered a great partner as long as you got a 98 on the Part 1 and a 99 on the Part 2.
No, I wouldn't. Who are you listening to? :confused:

Chuck

I do not need to call names, that is not necessary. But the way I have been attacked on this board and the "other" board for just bringing up something that has been published, written about time and time again and talked about at many camps all over the country, suggests that is the case with some. Just pick up a Referee Magazine any month and read all the articles and you will see that blowing the whistle or make a call has more to do with how you are precieved rather than the calls you make. Just look at the July article in the Basketball section called "Good to Great" on page 68. I did not see "rules knowledge" as the top or only thing considered to become a great official. But what do I know, I actually read other things than what is said on this board. I actually attend camps, not just talk about them. I actually talk to officials other than on this board and that do much higher levels than I do. Hell I even have talked to NFL, NBA and college officials. I guess I just make these things up. :rolleyes:

Peace

Dan_ref Wed Jun 19, 2002 03:48pm

Oh-oh...looks like Tony got sent to the principal's
office. :D

rainmaker Wed Jun 19, 2002 04:35pm

Hey, folks, can we get back to criticizing people who don't have a clue, instead of each other?

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
I still think I get the trophy for working with a partner who showed up to do his games in a striped shirt with "Foot Locker" still stitched onto the pocket!!
Holy cow!! Why would you invite that kind of abuse on yourself?!?!?!?!

This guy was at a weekend Jr Hi tourney, and was already there when I arrived. Wasn't much I could do about it. He also was "babysitting" his 7-year-old during hid games (I think he did about 6 or 7 that day), had several extremely inappropriate comments to make about my anatomy, and didn't know the carrying rule, the 3-second rule, or very many details of the travel rule. From what I hear, he's not working much anymore.

Now can't we all feel shocked together about this poor fellow, and band together to be superior and self-righteous as a very professional group, instead of tearing at each other's throats?

Thank you!

Oz Referee Wed Jun 19, 2002 04:49pm

Since we are on the topic of uniform
 
The uniform in Australia is shirt with collar and belted pants.

However, I once filled in for a referee - and didn't have my full uniform in the car, so wore black track pants with press studs down both legs. On a quick change of direction my thumb got caught between studs, and proceeded to rip off my pants. I was left trying to run up the court with my pants around my ankles with only a pair of bike shorts on!

Oh and by the way - I was 23, this was a Under 18's Girls game, and there was one particular player that I was reasonably interested in - it was fairly difficult to make eye contact with her for quite a while :) (She now plays for the University of Virginia).

So there you go - uniforms can make a difference!

LarryS Wed Jun 19, 2002 05:01pm

Re: Since we are on the topic of uniform
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Oz Referee
The uniform in Australia is shirt with collar and belted pants.

However, I once filled in for a referee - and didn't have my full uniform in the car, so wore black track pants with press studs down both legs. On a quick change of direction my thumb got caught between studs, and proceeded to rip off my pants. I was left trying to run up the court with my pants around my ankles with only a pair of bike shorts on!

Oh and by the way - I was 23, this was a Under 18's Girls game, and there was one particular player that I was reasonably interested in - it was fairly difficult to make eye contact with her for quite a while :) (She now plays for the University of Virginia).

So there you go - uniforms can make a difference!

And how long did it take your partner to quit rollingon the floor laughing?

What a great story...note to self...NEVER wear these type of pants to a basketball game (just in case)

LOL

Jurassic Referee Wed Jun 19, 2002 07:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Hey, folks, can we get back to criticizing people who don't have a clue, instead of each other?



Not a good idea. Chuckie gets mad when we bring up the Bosox! :D

BktBallRef Wed Jun 19, 2002 07:12pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Oh-oh...looks like Tony got sent to the principal's
office. :D

Nope, I went to edit it and unintentionally deleted it instead. Thankfully, Rut saved it for me, it's classic! :)

I love bustin' on him! He's so predictable!! :D

Juulie, that's exactly what I'm doing!! :p

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Jun 19, 2002 09:02pm

I think that this uniform discussion has gotten way out-of-hand.

NCAA: shirt: black and white striped V-neck

pants: black (belt or beltless; non-pleated or
pleated; the crew does not have to be the
same)

NFHS: shirt: black striped shirt (Byron collar or V-neck;
the crew must all wear the same style
collar)

pants: black (belt or beltless; non-pleated or
pleated; the crew does not have to be the
same)

What is the problem with wearing belted pants. I prefer the beltless but who cares as long as the pants are not faded, clean, and pressed. Personally, when it comes to pleated vs. non-pleated I think that the whole crew should be the same but the rules do not require it.

Having said what I said, if the StateHSAA requires it officials to all wear beltelss pants or V-neck shirts then that it what the officials are supposed to do.

Dan_ref Wed Jun 19, 2002 09:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Hey, folks, can we get back to criticizing people who don't have a clue, instead of each other?



Not a good idea. Chuckie gets mad when we bring up the Bosox! :D

Sigh. That's not right, it just is not right. (Funny yes, right no.)

BktBallRef Wed Jun 19, 2002 11:22pm

Sure it's fashion but there's not much else to discuss!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
What is the problem with wearing belted pants. I prefer the beltless but who cares as long as the pants are not faded, clean, and pressed. Personally, when it comes to pleated vs. non-pleated I think that the whole crew should be the same but the rules do not require it.

Mark, I'm curious. Why do you think that the entire crew should be the same with regards to pleated or non-pleated but you don't think the belted-beltless issue is a problem? It seems to me that the beltless issue would look noticeably worse than pleats and non-pleats. JMO.

BTW, when was the last time you saw I D1 men's official wearing belted slacks? I don't think I've seen it in several years.

Jurassic Referee Thu Jun 20, 2002 03:46am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Hey, folks, can we get back to criticizing people who don't have a clue, instead of each other?



Not a good idea. Chuckie gets mad when we bring up the Bosox! :D

Sigh. That's not right, it just is not right. (Funny yes, right no.)

I was talking about the Bosox not having a clue--not referring to Chuck at all.I would never say anything like that about him!If that wasn't clear,I hope it is now.

dblref Thu Jun 20, 2002 05:30am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
It's all about being uniformed.

How stupid would it look for one official to have belted slacks and a collared shirt while his partner is wearing beltless and a v-neck?

I, personally, don't see a problem with an association requiring all officials to be dressed alike.

My association doesn't have any requirements other than shirts must be v-neck and shoes must be the same (all crew members wear black, or they all wear white). No requirement on pleated/non-pleated or belted/non-belted.

BktBallRef Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:00am

Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
It's all about being uniformed.

How stupid would it look for one official to have belted slacks and a collared shirt while his partner is wearing beltless and a v-neck?

I, personally, don't see a problem with an association requiring all officials to be dressed alike.

My association doesn't have any requirements other than shirts must be v-neck and shoes must be the same (all crew members wear black, or they all wear white). No requirement on pleated/non-pleated or belted/non-belted.

White shoes? Is that why they ran you out of Fayetteville? :D

zebraman Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:53am

I got a call from the assignor last school year asking if I could accept a "last-minute afternoon game" to work with a new guy. It was a girls frosh game at 3:45 at the same school as my varsity game so I figured no problem.

My partner showed up as I was ready to toss and he was wearing beat-up white (actually more like yellow-gray) tennis shoes and black sweats. He did have a real ref shirt (not Foot Locker) and a real whistle (but no lanyard). He dropped his whistle on the floor twice in the first half so I gave him a lanyard at halftime.

He actually called a good game for a newbie and I felt completely comfortable with him in the second half. Amazingly, he even knew that sliding after gaining control wasn't traveling and he gave the stop sign to the coach. He's going to be a good ref and he even dresses like one now. :-)

Z

Dan_ref Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:21am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Hey, folks, can we get back to criticizing people who don't have a clue, instead of each other?



Not a good idea. Chuckie gets mad when we bring up the Bosox! :D

Sigh. That's not right, it just is not right. (Funny yes, right no.)

I was talking about the Bosox not having a clue--not referring to Chuck at all.I would never say anything like that about him!If that wasn't clear,I hope it is now.

I knew what you meant, I guess I left out the smiley face.
Here it is! ======> :)

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Jun 20, 2002 08:40pm

Re: Sure it's fashion but there's not much else to discuss!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
What is the problem with wearing belted pants. I prefer the beltless but who cares as long as the pants are not faded, clean, and pressed. Personally, when it comes to pleated vs. non-pleated I think that the whole crew should be the same but the rules do not require it.

Mark, I'm curious. Why do you think that the entire crew should be the same with regards to pleated or non-pleated but you don't think the belted-beltless issue is a problem? It seems to me that the beltless issue would look noticeably worse than pleats and non-pleats. JMO.

BTW, when was the last time you saw I D1 men's official wearing belted slacks? I don't think I've seen it in several years.


I really cannot give you are reason for my opinion regarding belted/non-belted nor can I give you a reason for my opinion concerning pleated vs. non-pleated. I guess I will use the excuse that I may not know anything about art but I know what I like and what I do not like.

dblref Fri Jun 21, 2002 05:34am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
It's all about being uniformed.

How stupid would it look for one official to have belted slacks and a collared shirt while his partner is wearing beltless and a v-neck?

I, personally, don't see a problem with an association requiring all officials to be dressed alike.

My association doesn't have any requirements other than shirts must be v-neck and shoes must be the same (all crew members wear black, or they all wear white). No requirement on pleated/non-pleated or belted/non-belted.

White shoes? Is that why they ran you out of Fayetteville? :D

Actually, I got Pentagon fever. This is where they offer you a promotion and you take 1 step forward and 3 backwards. Financially, this move was the dumbest thing I have ever done, and that was 20 years ago!


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