What's Wrong with this Ball..
 

I had one of these situations happen yesterday in a middle school tournament game and thought I would bring it to the boards.


A1 is dribbling the ball and the ball starts to bounce lower and lower and before you know it the ball has stopped bouncing and is on the floor not moving.

What do we have if anything on these two scenarios?

1. A1 with an open palm starts hitting the ball and the ball starts bouncing again.

2. A1 with a closed fist starts hitting the ball and the ball starts bouncing again.

In my rules, (FIBA) to put the ball on the floor, let go of it, and then start hitting it again is a double dribble. But thats my interpretation
Here, I believe I have an answer for you, if the FIBA rules are the same as your rules...

13.2 Rule
A player shall not run with the ball, deliberately kick or block it with any part of the
leg or strike it with the fist.
However, to accidentally come into contact with or touch the ball with any part of
the leg is not a violation.
An infraction of Art. 13.2 is a violation.

In particular, note the strike with fist bit... just my two cents.

Cleefy

I am curious why the ball quit bouncing. Was it the ball deflating or the players lack of dribbling? If the ball is the problem, I would stop play and check the ball. If it is the player; if the ball had stopped moving, I would consider either of those efforts an illegal dribble. But specific to your second question, hitting the ball with a closed hand does not necessarily constitute a violation of the rule regarding hitting the ball with fist.

Why should the OP's example be a double dribble? The dribble did not end.

24.1.1 A dribble ends when the player touches the ball with both hands simultaneously or permits the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.

Ciao

The ball was fine...the player lost control of the dribble and the ball naturally started bouncing lower and lower. He tried to keep the dribble going but it died on him.

I'm curious about the statement, can you elaborate?

"...hitting the ball with a closed hand does not necessarily constitute a violation of the rule regarding hitting the ball with fist."

Misleading Title?
 

DA - I guess nothing was wrong with the ball and you knew that. But if it was.....

Rule 1, Section 12, Ball ART. 1 . . . The ball shall meet the following specifications:

ART. 2 . . . The ball shall be inflated to an air pressure such that when it is dropped to the playing surface from a height of 6 feet, measured to the bottom of the ball, it shall rebound to a height, measured to the top of the ball, of not less than 49 inches when it strikes on its least resilient spot, nor more than 54 inches when it strikes on its most resilient spot.

ART. 3 . . . The home team shall provide a ball which meets the specifications. The referee shall be the sole judge of the legality of the ball and may select a ball provided by the visiting team.

I would agree with SPLUTE in this case. Blow it dead. Check it and replace it if needed at POI and no penalty. My $.02

We are allowed to start a dribble by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats ( intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)).... I do not see where the "stike" has to be with an open hand. Therefore I believe a player is allowed to use the bottom of a closed hand or even the back of the hand to dribble. I believe rule 9-4 relates to intentionally hitting the ball with the fist, as in a punch motion.

It is possible for the ball to go bad during the game...it would depend on the age of the ball or if it was made correctly, etc. I've seen footballs go bad during a game, as well as soccer balls. Even soccer balls inflated to the right pressure can explode when they hit the metal parts of the goal if they're covertly defective. It's very possible, but very rare at the same time.

Based on what you clarified here, I would say he was attempting to continue his dribble until it "died" on him. I am guessing at this point he picked up the ball. I would not have called any violation for illegal dribble in this case.

There is no reason for an illegal dribble. His dribble never ended.

Striking the ball with a fist; technically it fits the letter of the rule.

I've read Rule 4-15-1 about dribbling, but doesn't Rule 9-4 make it clear that a player cannot hit the ball with a fist?

Rule 4-15-1 states “A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

Rule 9-4 states “A player shall not travel with the ball, intentionally kick it, strike it with the fist or cause it to enter and pass through the basket from below.

If there are other players around when A1 tries to reconstitute his dribble, I'd call it. The OP has him hitting it with his fist, intentionally. I'm not sure how you think this doesn't qualify. If fits, but is generally only applied when safety is an issue.

BTW, if I was the defensive coach in this scenario, I'd be pissed...

...that my players didn't pick it up before it stopped bouncing.

When I started officiating, we had a lot of trouble with the basketballs. Sometimes the laces would start to unravel, and sometimes the ball would bet a big gash in it from striking the lip of the peach basket.

http://www.joejennette.com/sitebuild...l_-208x197.jpg

I believe you to...

I do not believe that is the intent of the rule. we see players bat the ball (with side of fist) to their teammates after a goal all night long; do you call the violation for that? No, of course not. However, if during a rebound or loose ball scrum, a player used his fist to volley the ball down court, then it applies. I simply do not believe contact with a closed hand consititutes a violation, in my judgment.

Back to the basics
 

Before the embers go cold here (or before I'm fully awake, I guess), I'd like to get clarification on what I thought was the crux of No. 1 in the OP.

What is the ramification, if any, if A1 is dribbling and either loses control of the ball or just "closes down" on it so his hand is ultimately sitting on top of a non-moving ball. May he a) slap down on it with open hand to bring his dribble back to life or b) punch/fist it back up to a dribble again? (Note: It has nothing to do with a defective ball, and the player has not yet picked up the ball or put his hand under it.)

Amesman, that is the crux.

Really? The rule is with the kick rule, and simply says striking the ball with a fist; just like it says striking the ball with a foot is a violation. Same wording, same intent.

FWIW, I never see players use their fists to pass a live ball.

You know why you don't call this or see it called? The ball is dead. You can't call a violation during a dead ball.

Article is provided "as is" without any warranties.
 

What was the ball stuffed with?

Lol, very true Snaqs, it is dead, Im afraid I didnt put enough thought into that comment. However, I do not see simply dribbling the ball with a closed hand to be the same as intentionally kicking or intentionally careeming the ball with a fist, in an attempt to gain an advantage. Both of these instances may give the player an advantage and considered unsporting. Simply starting a dribble with a closed hand or dribbling the ball with a closed hand does not give the dribbler an advantage (imo); perhaps even a disadvantage. :) Just my opinion. But i have never seen either in a game; just at the park. Thanks for the discussion.

You're right, I've never seen it either, and I've never heard of it being called in this situation. I did see a girls swing for the ball once and miss, hitting the player with the ball. I called a foul (should have gone intentional) and the coach started to whine about touch fouls and crap. I walked over to him and explained (not so calmly, I'm afraid) that his player had just hit the opponent with a fist while trying to hit the ball.

I learned two lessons on that play.

Back to the point. A player starting or continuing a dribble with a fist fits the letter of this rule, and in most cases, violations are not determined with advantage/disadvantage. However, this is not one you want to be calling 5 times a year; it's about as rare as the T for faking being fouled.