Didn't like the ending
 

Wednesday night, BV semi-final this year. About as well-matched game as you can get. Game ended up 60-56. Crowd in the game for the whole thing. Coaches animated, but nothing illegal. Dealt with some of everything, including fouled out players, blood, some very close block/charge situations (we were 4 for 4, according to our evaluator :eek:). Travels as though the kids already had their NBE contract and were practicing their NBE moves. :D Both coaches well-known in the region, with histories of success.

And in the end, it came down to who had the arrow for that last possession. I think we used the arrow 5 times all game... three to start each of the last 3 quarters, and two occasions to prevent undue roughness: one near the end of the game.

I didn't like it.

Like most officials, I completely understand the APA and it's fairness, etc. In addition, I do like FIBA rules better (though not some of their mechanics), and in the last 2 minutes of the game, the clock stops on made or awarded baskets, and TOs after a made or awarded basket have the TI go to half-court.

So I got thinking that maybe it'd be nice to have an actual jump ball for held ball situations under 2 minutes remaining in the game. It would be easier to implement in FIBA, because they already have a 2-minute rule. To introduce this into Fed, would be creating something new.

I know it would never go through, but I do think it would have led to an even more exciting ending.

Yoohoo... BillyMac....here's a thread just for you. ;)

On a side note, I ran my idea past a retired college guy, and he did agree that arrow throw-ins are not very exciting.

But he also said that officials administering a jump ball is among the poorest of mechanics that we use. I was rather perplexed because it is very rare that I need to blow down a R's toss if I am the U/U1. I think we do quite a good job at tossing the ball up.

Speaking of blowing down a toss, I had a partner in a Men's Rec game blow down my toss because it was too high. Both guys tried to steal it, got nothing, and couldn't jump again when the ball was on the way down so the first touch was by a jumper back on the floor. My thought was "so what?" but I never did ask him about it. Am I missing something?

No, your partner should have let it go.

So a 6'7" guy is tied up by a 5'10" guy and that's fair?

If we went back to jump balls, I'd never work another girls game as long as I live. :D

Unfair to who? :p

And how did a 6'7" guy let a 5'10" guy get near the ball? :D

In all seriousness, if "being fair" was the ultimate goal, a coin toss would be used. The outcome is 50%. Always.

A jump ball with a tall player should win the toss > 50% of the time.

I think the main reason we use the arrow is that it is quicker to administer. It would have made my game so much more exciting. I think that B stealing an inbounds pass is << the odds of each team obtaining a jumped ball.

Really? In all seriousness? Ugh... :rolleyes:

Is that right?......Why is it that the NFC, including this year, has won the last 11 Super Bowl coin flips to start the game (and 14 of the last 15)? Is that really a 50% outcome? Always?.....:)

Yup. Next year the AFC *and* the NFC will both have a 50% chance of wining that same coin toss...

The AP arrow is the best rule change in the last 30 years. I remember doing VG games in the 70s. Not only were there multiple held balls immediately after a jump ball, but you had to choose which two of the 8 players with their hands on the ball were the first two there. It made long games longer.

Yep, that means that every year for the last 11 SB's the home and away team have alternated winning the toss..

A sample of fifteen coin flips is statistcally insignificant.

Certainly, I do not want to go back to all those jump balls. In fact, when I started, we had one after every basket. I asked Dr. Naismith if he wanted to change that but he said no. :(

At least I did get him to cut out the bottom of the peach baskets. That speeded up the game somewhat and eliminated the ladder injuries.

Well, if your question is whether 14/15 is 50%, the answer is no. But the prior probability of flipping a heads is 0.5, even though it doesn't seem that way.

In fact, according to Benford's Law, a long string of the same result would be expected given a long enough series of tosses.

my main reason for NOT wanting to "flip a coin" on jump balls is simply because my partners won't use a coin of their own - they're so cheap, they won't "pay attention"....

Just like the home team provides a game ball, have the home team provide a coin. If they can't produce one, the V gets the first possession. Make sure the coin doesn't have the same picture on each side. :p

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Is that anything like Burke's Law?

"Never ask a question unless you already know the answer. Burke's Law." (Amos Burke)

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Like the double-headed 1922 Peace Dollar trademark coin used by Harvey Dent/Two-Face in the Batman flick, "The Dark Knight", which he flips when making important decisions?

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The toss isn't the main problem, although it may be a part of the problem. It's the umpire watching the eight non-jumpers. Too many rules, in too little time, used too infrequently. On the circle, off the circle, marked spaces, ready to toss, ball tossed but not touched, ball touched, moving into a marked space, leaving marked space, moving into an unmarked space, etc. Many officials I know, as the umpire, just hope that nothing weird happens, and just look for fouls, and out of bounds, during a jump ball, and sometimes, I include myself in that group, on a bad night. The only problem I have with a coin toss is, I believe, that they tried it in Iowa, for girls games, several years ago, and they went back to jump ball. They must have found a problem with a coin toss. Officials from the Hawkeye State, please share any pertinent information with us.

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At least NFC captains don't call, "Heads, tails", like a Pittsburgh captain did a few years ago, which caused the creation of new rules and mechanics for NFL coin tosses.

Yup. Jermoe Bettis flubbed that one. He knew it, too. Good call by the R, imho.

Good points. A few things I have noticed in my neck of the woods: teams so rarely use the ability to run the endline, and they mostly stay still during the jump ball. Every jump, I give myself the self-talk about what jumpers and non-jumpers can and cannot do. JP violations just don't happen, I find.

No problems, I don't think. What kind of problems could there possibly be. The girls just started moving towards alignment with the boys rules by removing a bunch of their "adaptations," and the coin toss was the first to go.

It felt silly to me.

According to Dr. Benford, I'm only 40 years from being even in poker.

If I were to consider any change in the held ball rule, I'd award the ball to the defensive player's team for a throw-in in order to reward the defense.

This would not be the case on rebounds that were joint possession before either team could get possession. In this case I'd go with the AP.

Thank the Lord that we have AP instead of jump balls. And we all know it came about because of girls BB.

Best thing the NCAA did was get rid of that experiment. The defense gets enough of a reward for this as it is. They either get the ball or force the opponent to use up their arrow to keep it.