Importance of games
 

Am I the only one that thinks it is out of line for a response in this forum to include anything about the relative importance of the game in question?

Here is the rule, but does it really matter? After all, it was just a kids game.

Your question and your rec league are silly. Don't waste our time here.

Etc.

Each official must decide which levels he is willing to work. That's fine. But if you think it is beneath you to call a certain level, I suggest you can either keep that part to yourself or stay out of the thread altogether.

The most important game for any official should be the one he is involved in at the moment.

Just my opinion.

Whether you are the only one or you are not the only one is irrelevant. People have a right to have an opinion about what should or should not be important. This includes the games or the level we are talking about. If that bothers you, report such comments to the moderator and if they find it out of line they will deal with the issue. But to suggest that people cannot share their opinions is not only unrealistic but it is not going to happen. In my opinion people on the internet take a lot of things that are trivial too seriously. We are mostly talking about something that many people couldn't care less about. And if everyone cared enough they would not hide behind little funny names to express their opinions.

This is kind of like the woman that had the 8 children recently. When you put yourself out their or your opinions, people have the right to respond to those opinions. If that is something a person cannot handle, they need not every say anything on this or any forum.

Welcome to the real world. ;)

Peace

Since you are obviously referring to the post that I made in another thread, please allow me to elaborate.

I was not in any way attempting to belittle the kids or the officials involved in that contest or at that level. To the contrary, I was trying to emphasize a point to some seemingly out-of-control PARENTS that they are placing WAY too much importance on the outcome of a kids game. I don't think that score should even be kept for kids playing at that age.
Unfortunately, these PARENTS seem to be more concerned with who won/lost than whether the kids got some exercise and had fun. They need to keep things in perspective. In my opinion, these people are missing the point of youth sports.

If you inferred anything other than that from what I wrote, then you misconstrued my words.

There is a lot of truth in what you say. The problem, as I see it, is this line:

At what age does it become a big deal? 19 year old kids are still kids and the game should be fun for them, too. The guy asked a question. You, as usual, quoted chapter and verse on the rule and gave him just what he was looking for. If he didn't think the issue was important, (a big deal) he probably would not have bothered to post the question. This guy was even a rare case. His team had won, but he was still interested in whether everything was done the right way, or as much so as possible. I think when somebody like that comes here for information, we should do as much as possible to educate and encourage that person, and refrain from anything which might be perceived as negative.

Officials are often perceived as aloof, unreachable, or arrogant. I personally try to avoid that image. Others may see it as a necessary part of some greater aura that they feel they need to project.

I was always taught it doesn't matter the age of the kids, you always officiate your best, as this may be the most important thing in their life at the time - right or wrong.

So, if you don't want to ref the younger kids - don't. My choice is not. But I try not to knock those who do. That being said, I realize over the web that you are not going to be able to "prevent others" from saying what is on their minds. So, if you don't like it keep it to yourself - or accept what comes. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. (And the moderators sensor us every now and again - which is their prerogative).

Personally, I try to avoid the really young kids. Sometimes their games give me a headache and their is really little I can learn or practice - except maybe to help teach another young official.

So, what happens? Last week I was asked to do a G9/11 Rec game due to a shortage of refs. UGH! Usually, my worst nightmare. Well, joke was on me. Easy game to call. No controversies. No parents/coaches yelling. Hardly any running on the small court and I got to help a young official learn. All in all enjoyable and easy on the knees! I may try to pick up some more of these! Ok, probably not. ;)

Just a comment about this particular point. I have a theory about why the parents of 4th graders are typically worse than the parents of 7th graders, who are in turn typically worse than the parents of varsity players.

Apart from just getting old and tired like me, the parents of teenage players have been watching kids play for years. For the most part, they have learned the game better, they have learned what to expect from amateur referees, and they have learned how little good they can achieve by hurling abuse at anyone (officials, opponents, coaches, etc.).

But I think maybe the most important thing they've learned is: their kids are going to lose sometimes. I think that this fact is hard for parents of younger kids to accept and motivates the obnoxious behavior that officials at that level must endure.

So I don't think it's just the "relative importance" or whatever that parents need to learn. They are so invested in the outcome because they haven't discovered that learning to lose with grace is one of the great lessons sports can teach.

An excellent point, very eloquently stated.

I'll note that I have made a similar observation before concerning youth games about parents learning to understand that little Johnny or Suzie will fall down or even get knocked down at some point in the contest and the official may or may not deem the action to be an offense, but either way it isn't the end of the world, nor likely that the kid will suffer permanent damage or the loss of a D1 scholarship.

I don't work anything but higher level high school games and small college (baseball), but I have nothing but respect for anyone who will give their time and energy to officiate elementary leagues, rec leagues, or even adult independent leagues. For pay/abuse ratio, these are usually the worst.

I think we're comparing apples and oranges, but it doesn't matter what level you work, you should always try to improve and give a quality effort. I think this forum is for all officials who want to improve, vent, or just waste time!

Each year, I work an 11U tournament at the end of their season. I do this to try to give back to the leagues and parents that gave me my start in officiating. It is often ugly and frustrating, but I'm compelled to do it out of loyalty.

That being said, I don't think scenarios and situations that occur at this level are the best cases for discussion on this forum. My perception is that the officials (and coaches and lurkers) that post and comment here are generally beyond that level of expertise. I try to keep the audience in mind when I comment or ask questions.

They might not be the best scenarios, but I wouldn't ever say they don't have a place here -- just as long as we get the right frame of reference as to what perspective the question is coming from.

Remember that even if kid rec leagues have things like no pressing in the back court, the majority of them still are grounded in NFHS rules. Who knows those best? Largely the ladies and gentlemen of this board who have postings in the four digits (or three or two or one ...)

So while I wouldn't want to see this board overtaken by the kid (or adult) rec-league questions, they have a place. Just as they did in the development of every official who ever pulled on the stripes. Besides, remember what they always say: If some crazy, rulebook-testing scenario is going to happen, it will occur at these lower levels -- and that's perfect for readying oneself for a bigger stage.

Anytime there are no banners being hung on the wall or ceiling for winning something, the level of importance should drop.

Peace

We all see things through different eyes. I can have a varsity game go down to the wire and, while it's fun to work a game like that, it doesn't raise my BP or heart rate like it did 15 years ago. It's just another game and I have no vested interest in the outcome, other than I want to make the proper calls and call the game the right way. No different than any other game.

As a parent of a young child (she's 4), I cannot imagine any game she plays before high school having any meaning other than "is she having fun" and "is she getting good exercise and learning how to be a good teammate." It's why I don't work games involving small kids, cause I wouldn't hesitate to tell parents screaming about calls to "get a life" at times when it was needed (or I'd have them removed, which is even sadder).

If I am going to spend my spare time working a game I am going to attempt to have fun in that contest. When it stops becoming fun I will stop working those games. That is why I do not work anything below high school anymore, because it started to not be fun anymore with the parents and coaches. This is just a sport, not a life or death activity. Kids will not likely remember what they did 20 years from now at that level. The only time they recognized that activity is when they are in high school because it is such a right of passage time of their life. I could not tell you a single game when I was in middle school or before and I could not tell you who was on the teams without looking at a year book (If I can find one). These kids are usually more concerned with where they are going to get ice cream after the game than how many points and assists they had playing what is only a game.

Peace

I've done basketball for over 30 years. I consider myself semi-retired from it because I have chosen to do mostly JH games. I am really enjoying this year, helping the young kids and coaches. I get satisfaction from knowing I have done a good job and that I am filling a big need. Sometimes I get frustrated at having to deal with such a low level of ability (turnovers, etc.) but I get through the game and realize why I am out there. At the same time, I am helping some rookie officials and that is satisfying too. It's amazing how much we take for granted that young officials don't know.

Although I try to consider each game a "big" game for the kids, I also know that the number one reason that kids play sports at these levels is to have fun (born out by several studies that I have read). Unfortunately, parents and some coaches see winning as the most important thing. You'd be surprised the number of grandparents that attend these games and they seem to be happy simply by seeing their grandkids play. :)

I've had to deal with wild coaches and disrespectful players but not very often, especially when they see that I won't put up with it. (3 T's this year) I know that the coach that I T'd learned from it because he came up after the game and apologized. Overall, the players and coaches at this level have been really fun to work with.

Everyone has their niche and it may change with time.

I was working a great game last week and a guy working security in the corner came up to me and chatted with me during a timeout. I thought this was kind of odd, but I quickly realized it was the principal. He had a huge smile on his face and said, "Isn't this game fun, just what high school sports should be about. Doesn't matter the outcome, it's a great game!"

His team was losing, BTW. And lost a few minutes later. I'm willing to bet he still saw it as a great game. As did I.

And that is the attitude that most people should take. But we have sullied the game with how many fouls are called and who is against them, then taking responsibility for learning lessons or being proud of how you perform under adversity of some kind. I do understand that winning is important, but it is not the most important thing. At the end of the year only one team is going to be champion and that means that everyone else has to learn to lose. We have lost site of how to lose with dignity and to take responsibility for your role in that losing. And just because something is important to me, does not mean it is important to you.

I am single and I like a certain kind of woman, does that mean I have to look for attributes that are important to someone else when that is not what I get excited about? The same thing applies to officiating or any sport.

Peace

The one thing I have a real issue with is this: Do these coaches who yell and scream really think I give a flying crap who wins the game?

If they do, well, they're dumber than they act.

Rec Games Church League Games etc.
 

I enjoy the game and working with kids to help them learn the game and to enjoy the game for what it is. At my age I doubt I will ever ref at the HS level. What frustrates me the most at the rec level are refs that have an attitude and don't know the rules and look like slobs. Maybe I take this too seriously. Reffing basketball games has been a tremendous outlet for me to reduce stress and think about the joy and fun in life. After losing my dad, my job, my home(house fire) and diagnosed with Lyme disease, two cars vandalized, one car totaled and my best friend (dog) died, in a span of 5 months, this game has given me an outlet. My dad was an amateur umpire (Little League in New England). He never umped a game without polishing his shoes, putting a tuck in his shirt and presenting a professional appearance. That is the way I approach every game. In two years of reffing, I still study the rules and keep up with the changes. I read everything I can and then role play situations to better prepare myself. I have received some high marks from other senior refs but I still strive to improve each and every game. Some of my brother refs, that are senior to me, still dont know all the rules and don't care. They call a lousy game, don't hustle, no mechanics and no communication. So, when coaches and fans, parents etc, start to get on their case and complain, I can not blame them. They bring it upon themselves and then they get an attitude. I am not immune to making mistakes because I have had my share of missed calls and forgetting a rule(s) as well. Some of these refs should hang it up because they do not do anything for the game nor for the spirit of the game and for good competition and sportsmanship. You know some of them and I am not saying all rec refs are like this but there are quite a few. I always look forward to learning something from a partner and sharing experiences, just like this forum. This is where one can grow and improve and get a great perspective on the game, both the good and the ugly. I have mentioned to my assignor that I prefer not to partner with some, but he likes to give me the troubled ones in hopes that I can help them improve. So when I hear some stories about fans and coaches getting on refs, I reflect back on my dad...and think about myself and how I am representing the game... "Am I prepared (know the rules)...am I mentally alert...did I check my attitude at the door...Am I hear to enjoy the game...is my shirt tucked, pants pressed, shoes shined, hair combed and I always rember to introduce myself to my partner, smile and say "Look forward to working with you, now let's play some basketball."

Thank you, sir, for your post. You are the poster child for what I was trying to say. The attitude you have says that every game you call is important, no matter what anybody else may say. If there was a question posted on this board about a call made in one of your games, and this question was met with "The officials were probably clueless," or "What's the difference, it's just a rec league," this generalization would be doing a disservice to you, which is what I would like to avoid.

Every game does not share the same importance to everyone, nor should it. This is an activity, not a moral display of standards. If the games did have the same level of importance, then TV would cover them and fans outside of parents would be at every game. What you are saying sounds great, but not very realistic. I tend to want to deal with realism than fantasy.

Peace

Nobody said the same level of importance. There is a huge difference between equal importance and "your game/league is silly." A moral display of standards. I have no idea what you mean, but that is not unusual.

A side note about matters of relative importance and what should be on tv:
A topic brought up for discussion on ESPN First Take was whether or not Lebron James should change his number.

Let me put it this way. You said in an earlier conversation that you did not mind showing up to a game in your uniform. I think that kind of display would be unprofessional and where I live would be considered unprofessional by most.

Just those two things illustrate a completely different approach to officiating and how you want to be perceived as compared to how I want to be perceived. If you and I can have a completely different approach to how we look before a game, why do we have to have the same approach to how we perceive a game that we work?

Peace

I, too, want to thank you!
 

I hear you brother!

Man-o-live, that is a traumatic life... let alone in the past 5 months.

Your father taught you right and well - lead by example & if you are going to do the job, do it right the first time.

Feedback from colleagues is important and that is why I participate in this forum.

I hope I am able to look in the mirror and acknowledge to myself that it is over when that time comes.

It is time to look in the mirror and be honest to yourself, if you stop seeking improvement.

You can work with me!!! :)

This just sounds like 2 different point of opinions here. JAR, it is unfair for you to ask people to keep their opinions to themselves on a public forum. I do, however get your point, but the greater issue here I think is that one thing a lot of officials have a hard time with is calling a game to the level of the competition.

In a youth game or middle school game how anal are we with the book being ready 10 minutes before? How often do we get the captains and then meet with coaches? How often do we stand opposite the table and observe the warmups for 15 minutes? How much LESS patience do we have with coaches at these levels rather than the varsity level?

I think that what some posters are taking personally should be taken more as a general guideline of perspective. We do not officiate all levels the same, and judgement skews from one side to the other depending on what level you are officiating. Every game I officiate I take pride in and in most cases I hustle until the very end. There have been occassions where I slacked off, but I was still capable of officiating that game at my slacked off state as if I had been hustling or compared to some other officials who might have to work harder.

And I don't think that anyone looks down on an official for the level he works. We just look down on those levels of play after our own experience has taught us that the participants are a bunch of yahoos.

Okay, I think I get it now. The fact that you wear "nice clothes" to a game raises you to a level of "professionalism" which, coupled with your perceptions of games that you work gives you the right to speak in a condescending tone to others about games that they play and the officials who work them.

Deecee,

Very well said.

Peace

Do not twist what I said. I simply said that my approach is clearly different than your approach. And personally what I wear in certain situations in and outside of officiating is very (extremely) important to me. I would not for example wear jeans to officiating a high school game. This is my way (BTW I am not the only one that feels this way), that is fine with me. I realize everyone is not going to have my approach to what they wear or how pressed their pants are, or how shined their shoes will be. Then again I want to look nice for far more reasons than just professionalism of officiating. I do so because that is how I was raised. And when I am going to do a job of any kind, I want to look appropriate to the event. Looking like I just walked out of bed is not appropriate to me. But you do not see me condemning people for what they do now do you?

Now if that is my approach to what I do and you do not approach it that way, that does not mean we look at this or how "important" a game is no matter how many times you say it. All games clearly are not important to me, because I choose to only work certain levels no matter how much is offered to work those games. I am fine with this, why is it hard for you and others to understand other distinctions people make about what they do when they officiated.

Peace

The point of the keep it yourself part was simply trying to discourage derogatory remarks, which might result in negative publicity that we as a group don't need. As far as different approaches to officiating different levels, I personally find it a relief to call varsity games after calling youth league games. When I was first approached about officiating, it was at the jr. high level. I expressed doubts about my own ability to do the job and was told, "Just keep them from killing each other." This was said jokingly, but the idea is based in fact. The biggest problem I see at low levels is officials who will not blow the whistle. This can be a rookie plagued by uncertainty, but it could just as easily be a certified official daydreaming about D1 and thinking "this game doesn't matter."

I am fine with it and I get it. I don't expect people to all follow the same pattern or my pattern. I respect everyone's opinion because I have learned many moons ago, it's not all about me and I am not always right. There are a lot of great people in this world and I would like to learn and grow from those that God puts beside me to work and live with it. And maybe I take my rec games too seriously like I said, but for now, I get charged up for them, I look forward to getting on the court with the kids and I like the environment and I hope and pray that I bring my best out there for them. I am also getting paid for this and representing my association as well.

Depends on what you consider to be condemnation.

The bottom line to this, no matter what you say or what I say, it is not going to change what we do. If you want to look like you just walked off the truck, be my guest. At least I know you are not going to change. Just like you should realize no matter how many ways you say it, it is not going to change everyone's approach to games. All games are not equally important and they never will be. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...olleyes010.gif

Peace

You're right, Rut. All the games I work are important. All the games worked by others are not.

Sometimes things get lost in translation.

And sometimes they don't.

Or it could be an official who calls every bit of contact and knows nothing about advantage/disadvantage and has both teams in the double bonus in the first and third quarters.

For me and my perspective, the lower level games can be an enigma at times.

I love the lower levels because the kids are still young enough that they usually play hard all game long from start to finish and are eager to try to learn the game.

As I was telling our AD after our last game this weekend, It's just frustrating to encounter adults that thing it's all about them and not the kids. Coaches who feel that the rule requiring no starters in with a 30 point lead; officials who show no mechnics, no hustle, or admit they don't know and/or won't enforce the league specific rules; and the parents who think their child will be the next pro superstar even though the kid is 10 year old are enough to make anyone (myself included) ask themselves "Why am I at these games?"

I also realize that what happens in a CYO JV game with players in the 9-10 year old range is small potatoes in the grand scheme of life, the people involved -- coaches, game crew (such as myself), etc. -- should at least try to give a good effort and try to do as good a job as possible and ensure the games are played according to the rules (ideally, not just to the letter, but also in the spirit). Yes, I will admit I am a bit particular about subs coming to the timer/scorer to check in and not just waiting at the far ends of the table, but only because I want to get them in the good habits early. :D

(/my $0.02)

A high school district game would probably be more important than a 5th grade rec league game as far as having to enforce some rules such as illegal numbers, wrong color jerseys (blue vs red) for example, etc.

As for the calls, there shouldn't be that much difference, except that you are more lenient on travel, double-dribble, etc in a 3rd or 4th grade game compared to high school.

But that being said... to the 5th grade players in a championship game of their rec league.....their game is just as important to them as the state championship game for their local high school.

I don't think anyone would question this part.


This is the idea I was hoping to promote, and while I would not presume to censor anyone, I thought perhaps some might think twice before giving replies which cast a negative light on any other poster's game/league, no matter what level is being discussed.

Sorry, not going to happen. I guess you will continue to be upset. Because if some parent comes here yelling about how the officials screwed their child’s game as if this was the 7th game of the NBA Finals or the Final Four, you will not get a response that will not show some perspective. It might not even come from me; it will come from many that post here.

Nice try, but it will not work.

Peace

It is fine to have perspective:

First time poster: Last night in my 10 year old girl's game the other team repeatedly reached in and went over the back and they didn't call any fouls.

Response: You need to understand the rule on what actually is or is not a foul............etc. Also at this level, it is quite possible that the officials have limited experience.......etc. A game involving players of this age is difficult to compare to high school games or things you see on tv.........etc.

But it's not necessary to smack someone in the face with your perspective:

Response #2: Sir/ma'am, it's obvious you know nothing about the game and combined with the fact that it's just a kids game, which means it had clueless officials, there's really no point in any of us trying to explain anything to you. We have important issues to discuss, like what shoes the D1 guys wear.



Each of us must decide who he wants to be.

Either you do not read many posts or you are reading what you want to read.

I do not read on a regular basis people just coming out and saying, "it is just a kid’s game" without some explanation or trying to help the person out. Usually the people that are not officials come here want only to have their positions validated and do not come here for an honest discussion or a real official's point of view. Considering that this is an official's website, things like shoes and pants and other aspects are going to be "important" to someone.

Just like you cannot dictate how people respond to people that come here and talk about what is or is not important, you cannot tell people what they can talk about either. And you are definitely not telling people how to feel about games at any level. Just like there are people here that do not care about the NBA, but there are others that do. If those conversations bother you, do not read them. To expect everyone is going to treat a kids game, men's league or rec. league the same as a college or high school game is rather silly and unrealistic. It is not going to change because it upsets you.

Peace

Werd.

At the end of the day, NONE of us are doing brain surgery. A lot of people at all levels can use a little perspective. It *is* just a game.

If those 5th grade championship games were as important *to me*, I'd be seeking to work them, instead of making a conscious decision to *not* work them. When a parent of a 9 year old comes here and rants, I think they typically get exactly what they deserve.

My older son played at junior college, and my younger son now plays at a D3 school.

I think I have a pretty good perspective of when basketball should be taken a little more seriously.
I tried calling college ball, but my work schedule wouldn't allow it. I prefer high school.

Each year I go down to the local school to watch friends' kids play elementary ball. I leave with a smile on my face after watching parents yell like fools, coaches try strategy they've seen on ESPN, and officials who use atrocious mechanics and don't know the rules.
If some of those officials can use this forum to improve, I say more power to you. Who am I to judge what level you want to call? But let's keep it in perspective, guys!

FWIW, my son informed me last weekend that he signed up to officiate intramural basketball games this spring after his college season is finished. (probably not a good idea, but I appreciate him wanting to make a little extra spending money!). He told me he'd like to get together one day and let me give him and a couple of buddies a few tips to get started.

I told him he would need a whistle with a pea in it, a shirt with a collar, a duffel bag, and to be sure to come to the game already in uniform.

I figure that way he doesn't have anyway to go but up! :D

I'm so new that I haven't yet become registered (can't until MHSAA opens the registration period). I get everything else, but why no duffel bag? What do you use instead?

This is a good question, and it's a regional thing. I use a roller-style carry-on suitcase, and most of the officials here do the same. In my last association, duffel bags were the norm (possibly because a roller-suitcase doesn't work well in mountain snow, or possibly because they were cheapskates and no one cared. They also wore belted pants because they were cheaper and you could buy them locally.)

Welcome!

There have been several... let's say debates... on duffel bags vs. rolling bags (along with shoes, whistles, brands of shirts, etc). I was just trying to lighten up the mood, bringing up a couple of things that have been tossed around on here.

Thanks. I want to "make a good impession on my first day."

Exactly!!!!!!

Peace

As a parent of a 10 yr old that plays (we don't call it a traveling league but we do play a handful of local tournaments) and obviously an official also, I realize what type of people we're getting to officiate his games. Quite frankly, I am more than gracious to them as I know they'd rather be doing something else. I always make it a point to say thanks to them if our paths cross after the games. I even draw ire from the Mrs. when I call out a one of the parents for chastising any of the "brothers" during the game.

THANK YOU "Brother"!... I too have been given a solid rib-shot by Mrs. Willie for advocating positive crowd behavior.

I have had a bad string of games where "brothers" of the cloth have either been inert; or even worse, participants in chastising the officials. Sadly our spineless local association is so ineffective that it isn't worth the effort to breach the subject with the so-called "leadership."