technical fouls from a coaches perspective
 

Coaches,

When you get a "T" in a basketball game, for something you deserve( I'm not talking about an illegal substitution). How do you feel about it the next day? Especially if you continued to voice your disapproval of the call during the game.

Do you still think the official is a jerk and doesn't know what they are doing, or do you respect him or her alittle more for standing up and enforcing the rules of the sport?, or lastly do you just move on and forget it?

I've received 2 T's in my career.

The first was in a game in which we were completely over matched. The officials waved in a sub that reported to the table long after the warning horn sounded following a time out. I reminded them that no subs are allowed after the warning horn and they both looked at me like I had two heads and then they looked at each other and started to come together to discuss it. Obviously they had no idea what I was talking about. The opposing coach is holding his sub at the table waiting for a decision and I turned to him and said (loud enough for the officials to hear), "Tim, just send him in, these two don't know the rules anyway." That got me the T. I sat quietly the rest of the game...I knew I "earned" the T but I didn't feel bad about it...those two were incompetent.

The 2nd I was actually trying to be funny. The official who whacked me was someone I knew by name, but didn't know per se. 1st half my pg got hit on the forearm on a pull up jumper loud enough to hear the contact. Lead became trail in front of my bench and I said (only loud enough for him to hear), "Sammy, you didn't hear the contact? My grandmother in the last row who's 85 heard that one." I was shocked when he blew the whistle and whacked me, and as I took my seat I told him, "sheez, I was just trying to be funny."

I've actually felt bad, and apologized later, for things I've said and haven't been t'd up for though...Heat of the moment stuff, where I'll say it and then say to myself, boy if the roles were reversed I would have definitely called a T.

I have had 5 Ts in 18 years, and I still remember every one of them. Three of them I knew I was probably going to get T'd, and had no problem with the result of my actions. No bad blood between me and the officials the remainder of the game, and life moved on.

The other two...not so much.

One of the coaches in my travel program gets T'd a lot (too much I think), but they don't phase him, and he is the kind of guy will shake your hand and say good game 10 minutes later.

I have had 3 T's in 5 years..Last year was my last in a division championship, I didnt think we were getting the calls we should when drove the basket and I basically started to ride him..It took about a quarter, but when he whacked me, I turned and sat down..he didnt need to tell me that I lost my box..

I wouldn't know.

In 13 years of coaching basketball, I never received a "T". Never saw the point of it.

JM

That's one reason you've been able to transition so easily to officiating.

I've been awarded one, in more than 10 years of coaching MS and HS. Got it/desrved it for being an obnoxious fan, begging for calls while I was coaching, about 7 years ago. "That" me probably thought the official had been trigger-happy. Since then, I had the fortunate opp to officiate some MS games, HS summer league, and kids' and adults' rec league for about 14 months. That experience and this forum taught me to "coach the team" and not to "evaluate the refs." Nowadays, I'm sure if I earned a T, I would admit I had earned it and apologize to the official afterwards. It would probably straighten me up for a long while. And to answer the question, I would say it would remind me to respect the official more properly. A little like some would say that service of some sort or travel would make an American be more appreciative of his or her own country, I would say that working the dark side would make almost every coach a lot more appreciative of the roles of coaches and officials, and would make most coaches better coaches.

On the other side of the implied question, if I observed a coach abusing an official and the official failed to whack, my opinion of the official probably would drop a little, depending on a lot of other factors, too.

I dont coach basketball but I do coach soccer. I've received the equivalent of a T (a card) only once in 11 seasons.

Back when I did coach, I got three T's in one season. First one, opposing player was in-bounds, and bounced the ball once out of bounds, and the official missed it. I made a remark to him when he was in front of me that the ball was three feet OOB and actually bounced off of one of the bench players; he T'd me up. As I reflect on that, I earned it because my tone may have been scarcastic when I said it.

The second and third T's should have been just one, but I blew my stack big time, yelled "this is bull****!" and kicked a chair all at once. Both officials blew their whistle and signaled T and decided that since they both had a T on me, I collected two T's and an ejection. I disagreed with them, but made a exhibitionist exit (ala Bobby Knight) and got my boys fired up. This whole thing ended up leading to me being suspended from our next game. As I look back on it, I was young and stupid, and definitely deserved a T on that.

When I coached, I got 4 T's in 3 years.

One, my buddy was officiating our game. His partner had not a clue. His partner administered FT. Kid bounced the ball 3-4 times then lost it. The kid WALKED into the lane, picked up the ball, went back to the line and shot the FT. I asked him, is that not a violation. He replied no, and told me that was enough. Yep, I went ballistic. My buddy stuck me. We still run together periodically, and get a good laugh about that night.

Two, away game. Officials are not very good, and their effort was horrible. My kids getting the raw end of more than a couple calls. Home coach, actually stands up, walks toward me, and says, "Coach, I am really sorry about [the officiating]." I finally yelled at one of them that he was horrible. He started to give the T, then stopped. I glared at him and yelled, "HORRIBLE!" That did it. (I earned it.)

Three, same "partner" official as in sit. one, only HIS partner was actually worse. Visitors scores, my team inbounds the ball, and I request a time out. Nothing. His partner WALKS in front me (max. 5 ft. away), I ask for a TO x2. Nothing. Now I start yelling, "TIME OUT!!" (x2-3) NOTHING. Finally, the lead on the other end of the court grants the TO, then gives me a T for yelling at the officials.

Four, we are away. We start the game with 9 players. Home starts with 5 total players. Teams are pretty even talent wise, so I figure it should be a good game. That is until the officials showed up. BOTH from that town, BOTH graduated from that school, and one worked for the school district. They let them play, and it got rough. I asked for them to tighten it down, to no avail. Twice I requested TO's, but was not granted them, even though my player was holding the ball, standing near mid-court with no one within 15 ft. Fouls at end of 1st half (12-3). I know, I know, don't count, just call. 2nd half was worse. Foul count 19-1!! I lost it. I was begging for the T, and he finally gave it, with about 4-5 minutes to play. I begged him to give me a second one too, because I wanted their behinds to take a visit to the State Association's Office. (We video taped our games, so I had all the proof I needed.) Alas, I couldn't get it. One of the ref's did tell me afterward that he was going to throw me out of the gym though. I laughed, told him to go away. (Note: Varsity game, the ref who T'd me was sitting in the stand right behind the home team, cheering them on to victory!) Still gets me a little unnerved.

Obviously, I didn't last in coaching. :D ha ha

I began coaching basketball at the jr. high level when I was still in high school. I continued coaching (still help out at times when asked) for decades. I got to know many a coach. Some of us got very few technical fouls, others would routinely get two in a game back in the days when an ejection only meant an ejection for the remainder of that game.

Coaches don't necessarily think officials are jerks simply because the official gave them a technical foul. In most cases, technical fouls come after a lengthy "courtship" between official(s) and coach. My technicals virtually all came when arguing about a rule as opposed to a judgment call. The original reason I got my officiating license was solely for the purpose of ensuring that, as a coach, I knew the rules. If I was going to argue a call I wanted to make sure that I was right. Like many of the coaches who have already responded, if I received a technical from an official because he did not know the rules and I pointed it out, I have to admit, I usually thought very little of the official the next day. As a coach, I expected the officials to know the rules. When they didn't -- AND T'd me up -- I had little to no respect for them.

I never got a technical foul for just constant arguing and bickering. Many of my friends have. Most of them know that a line needs to be drawn. As long as the official has been willing to talk to them during the game, generally, the coaches are fine the next day -- or even after the game. If the official either never gave an indication that the technical was coming or refused to even answer questions during the game, the coaches typically thought the official was "a jerk" (to use your term).

Many coaches are remorseful after the fact (after the game, two hours later, the next day, or at some point). Most of those coaches would tell you that they got into the game and got out of line. In those cases, the coaches typically do not view the officials in a negative way -- they understand that the officials have a job to do.

Some coaches show up to every game with a chip on their shoulder ASSUMING that us officials are going to "stick it to their team" somehow during the game. In most cases, these coaches tend to be the ones who get T'd up the most. If you come into a game with a biased view (coaches, parents, fans and players all have a bias since they want their team to win) AND come in with that attitude. Any close game becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Coach has a bias, but is searching for the missed calls that will stick it to his team. Several close calls go against his team (remember, he is looking for them). Coach now gets on the officials -- no one call, just overall about everything. T is the result.

These guys and gals usually do not end up in coaching very long -- OR change their views. These folks wake up the next day thinking the official who called the T is "a jerk", his partners were "jerks", the guys working the game before were "jerks", etc.

I coach HS football, not basketball, and have gotten one USC penalty flag thrown on me in the years I have coached. I deserved it, wanted it to let my players know I "had their backs", and don't regret it. The situation doesn't really matter, the officials doing the game were letting some dangerous things happen over and over and I let them know we were not pleased. Got the flag and shut up. Sent the tape in to the league office and the crew was suspended for a game.

As basketball officials, we need to realize that there are lots of different reasons why coaches get T'd. It is simply a call - just like any other call we make - and really doesn't deserve any more agonizing over or questioning ourselves than any other call. If it's there, call it.

15 years of middle school coaching, two T's. First one was during a Wreck league game, official told me one more word and he was going to T me. I turned around and said Thanks. tweet! Deserved it for sure, team started playing better and went on to win...

Second game we were away at this small school, officiating wasn't very good (it is middle school). We were winning by 10+, my player was in the back court being double teamed, heard a whack (ended up with a welt on the side of his neck), defense takes the ball and makes layup. I make a comment, without even getting up, something to the effect of "Are you even watching the game?". Deserved that one for sure, but just trying to protect my players. Shortly after that I had a player make a stupid pass, causing an over and back. Player retrieves the ball, bounces hard and misses the ball on the way up. Not mad at official, just himself. Tweet! Fortunately, we went on to win...

Wow. This is completely unprofessional :eek:. Hopefully this guys has learned his lesson by now...

many of the comments seem to suggest that the "T"s given were the result of poor officiating. One specifically mentiond mid school officiating.

Most every one acknowledge's that mid school is a good training ground for officials. But do you coaches think that your view of the officials was somewhat tainted by the fact you were coaching in the game?

It always seems that coaches will say a game had good officials when they win, but poor officiating when they loose...for the most part.

But no one really answered the real question, and it is do you have remorse the day after or do you respect an official more, if that official has the B**ls to give you a "t" for an obvious unsportsmanlike act.

Are you kidding? This is every night in rural Wisconsin! And the guys sometimes sit there with their officiating uniforms (with just a jacket over it) doing it, too! Nothing worse than a guy who comes dressed and doesn't even wear different shoes into the gym, considering all the weather we have here and all the crap they get on their shoes.

And the funny thing is that some of these guys are among the worst officials I've ever seen and NOBODY gets on them. We come in from out of town, have new uniforms, shined shoes, actually work hard (some of the trails don't get out of the backcourt in the JV games and stand as if there are nails through their feet) and we get it from the opening tip.

And I wouldn't trade with these guys for the world.

General observation...
 

This is not meant to focus on TrojanHorse, but toward coaches in general:

I am dumbstruck with the mindset of a coach who thinks s/he is going to improve the official's performance by publicly berating him/her. Common sense would imply you can only make the situation worse by this behavior.

You know, at the time it was to make a point. 42 second into the game, this official comes to tell me #40 is getting out of hand, he is not going to be out there long. I asked what he is doing so i can address it. I get no answer, the kid pick up two quick ones. I sub him out. I put him back in to start the 2Q, gets his third quickly. All fouls from the same official. I just thought a point had to be made is all.

I have officiated and know how all of this works. I used to officiate with some guys who instead of taking care of the coach would look for fouls on the stud player or the only guard on the team just to make a point. I did not like it then and I do not think most of you all would either.

RANT ON
I think refs are handy and lots of people have no self control. Kinda of like my new puppy. He thinks he can do what he wants when he wants. My 3 older dogs and myself are there to let him know what the deal is.

I've long ago gotten over people behaving badly so coaches acting up doesn't upset me as much as seeing refs just take the abuse.

About a year and a half into this gig I knew one of two things were gonna happen. one, I quit or two I learn how to deal with the coaches. Through blind luck I stumbled onto this forum and chose to take care of business. I learned how to deal with coaches and I do.

The fact that I'm willing to give T's make ALOT of my partners uncomfortable. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "we don't want to be looking for T's." well I'd have more money then I do. I don't have to look far for T's, thats for sure.

I'm less concerned with the coaches then I am with refs who just let themselves be bullied in gyms nationwide. I also realize I have the advantage of working in a large ASSOC., 120 schools, so I don't have to worry about being "blacklisted" and losing games.I also work for an assignor who believes we let WAY TOO MUCH go from the coaches. He has always had my back.....

RANT OFF

TrojanHorse:
As I mentioned in my original response, I am not "calling you out." In fact, I have cause to believe you do an admirable job as a coach and official. I just wanted to identifying a group of "coaches" who insist on making a scene and you offered the context (in one instance) that applied to mindset I wanted to discuss.

Additionally, I, too, am embarrassed for the the avocation of officiating when people put on the stripes and make a mockery of the position. Unethical behavior such as you described above seriously frustrates me and all others who genuinely officiate for the love of the game and the positive values it can promote.

I agree about the discouragingly large number of officials who are fearful (or don't chose for whatever reason) to use one of the most effective tools at the official's disposal.

I am also glad to see you recognize that there are significant factors that weigh-in on an official's on court decisions. Sadly, in WI, the coaches submit their ratings of officials. I have observed coaches enter "Awful," "Sucks" etc... by the Officials name in their score book before it leaves the table. Needless to say, I am NOT a proponent of our state Association's evaluation "System."

Know that I took nothing to offense. There are many times my coaching counterparts go well beyond the line. The bad thing is that they are not dealt with. It tells the coaches their behavior is ok and will be tolerated. I have put more effort in to coaching my kids than acting like a jack@$$. In fact, the association that handles our games have problems recruiting and maintaining officials. I think the abuse they continue to take has alot to do with it.

Yea I get that some refs are between a rock and a hard place.

I'm not for 2 reasons.

1. Geography

2. If I had to ref under those circumstances my schedule might be severly cut. Didn't we have someone around here who said he sits home 4 nights a week while the "coach pleasers" work 5 nights a week. I am more then willing to stop reffing if it becomes not so much fun. Don't get me wrong, I love the atmosphere, the continuing quest for improvement and perfection, getting out of the house a couple nights a week, BUT its a hobby and I take it year by year, and the money I make basically pays for road trips to see people like Nevadaref officiate :cool: and visit my brother. It's not the be all and end all for me if I couldn't ref anymore-so having that attitude helps in taking care of business.

Vicious cycle
 

In my earlier days, I worked as a youth counselor in two different institutions for the State of WI. One location was filled with "rookies" and the other had many veteran counselors. In the first location the "inmates ran the asylum" the second had a sense of order and much more habilitation occurred. I offer this analogy because it appears that your location suffers a similar dilemma and, sadly, it will continue to struggle until a core of veterans comes in and establishes a higher threshold. Best wishes with that.

Heck we have that in my area and its unecessary. The assignor WANTS us to take care of business. Our vets tend to be college guys ,and in our area the coaches run the college show, and so that attitude tends to have the trickle down effect to the HS game.

This is the biggest reason why a lot of officials in my area are afraid to call technicals. Something really needs to be done about the ratings system.

I live in Wisconsin and while I am not happy with a lot of things revolving around what you say above, I do not let it affect me one bit. I'd rather quit than let a rating or a conference commissioner blacklist affect how I run a game.

There's a local conference I do not work (that I would like to work) and it's because I gave an USC flag (in football) to the league's prima donna head coach -- and his athletic director was and is too much of a puppet to do what's right. My only regret is that I didn't eject the coach, cause he sure had it coming. But I didn't avoid it because of ratings or a desire to work the conference, I was just stunned that someone could act so badly on a field and I missed my opportunity to send the right message.

BTW, this coach has rated me every year since then even though he has never seen me work since, which is against policy. Again, the athletic director made excuses for him rather than take care of the problem.

So just take care of business and work the other schools.

I'm probably a little tired due to the end of season and whatnot but that is really disappointing to me that people like the coach get away with crap like that. Talk about small and petty. :(

The whole friggin world seems to be running out of people who do the right thing.

I'll have to find a website of "doing the right thing" people to restore my faith in humanity.:)

I think it looks like this from the coaches perspective
 

http://cdn-www.expertvillage.com/sho...nical-foul.jpg

Especially if its given by this guy.

From a coach's perspective? I believe this is a bit more accurate.

http://i40.tinypic.com/9atztc.jpg


Sorry, it's a Friday after a very long week...

At least the A-11 is going away. :)

I had one T in 10 years coaching. I did get thrown out of one baseball game, though.

How did I feel about it? Even though it was pretty much planned to keep my players in the game, I still felt embarrassed by it. No animosity towards the official.

As a coach, I never bothered to 'work' the officials - what a waste of time. At first, I completely ignored the officials. Then, during a winless season out of desperation for an edge, I really studied the rulebook closely and began to TALK to the officials about rules. I actually got some calls changed that way.

What I've found now that I officiate is that the guys that chirp the most are the ones who don't know how to coach. They don't have anything to say to their players, so they yell at the officials.

RichMSN
 

I understand what you are saying... and agree.

I am a late bloomer as an official. I did not blow my first whistle until I was 35 yrs old, so I am not as "networked" as many my age. At this point, I believe I have established a positive reputation as I am getting a greater amount of contracts each year. Additionally, my age and life experiences have made me a much more grounded person and do not hesitate to "do the right thing" and TCOB. One example of this is my active role of informing ADs about their lower level coaches & players conduct (positive or negative). I have also sent numerous Positive Sports PLUS reports to the WIAA (one was recently published in the Bulletin).

I sincerely do not spend much time worrying about what a coach is going to rate me either. The sad part is that they are involved in the process at all.

Well, I'll tell you how vindictive these coaches can be. There was an official who once was a collegiate basketball D1 player. He got into a fight in a game with the other teams player.
He went on to become a fine official and worked the NCAA II finals in Kansas. He applied to officiate in the D1 conference he had played in. However, it only took one coaches 'no' vote and you could not join the conference. It was also acceptable for an official not to work a particular game if there might be a conflict between official and coach. You would just work all the other teams. Hank Nichols worked this conference and he also went to school in this conference. Seven of the coaches knew he was a fine official and voted for him. However, this one coach would not let this fine official in, not because of his officiating abilities, but because of that fight years before against his team. I will not mention that coach by name (2nd winningest D1 coach of all time), nor the official or the conference. However, this just shows the what these coaches can do to a fine official and how they hold a grudge. But yes, it is their right to do this, vote someone out for any reason whatsoever, valid or unvalid.

Same type of thing happened when George Solomon gave Knight a T back in the 80's and was run out of D1 ball.

Maybe I Should Change My Forum Name ???
 

Me too. I also used to "CoachNRef". Finally, after over twenty-five years, the helicopter parents got to me, so now I "JustRef".

Beachbum:

I'm not a coach, but I the the jist of this is:

Coaches are people, just like officials. Not all technical fouls are created equal. Sometimes a coach will go looking for a technical to "fire up his team" and actually may have less respect for you at the end of the day if you DON'T "T" him up. Some will look back and realize they were out of line and know you were doing your job. Some are incompetent nits who think that they're always right and will hate you forever for daring to question their pure, unadulterated awesomeness.

Coaches are people too (much to the surprise of some on this Forum.:p ) There's no way to put something like this in a box and say it's going to play out the same way every time.

Get out there and take care of business.