Explain This to the Howler Monkey

[rainmaker]

Case Book 6.7 Situation B: " Prior to the bonus and after A1 starts the free-throwing motion, A2 commits a common foul by pushing B1 along the lane. Ruling: If the foul occurred after the ball was in flight, the point counts if the throw was successful and no substitute throw is awarded if not successful. If A1 had not released the free-throw attempt before A2 fouled B1, the ball became dead when the foul occurred and A1 is permitted an unhindered free throw. The foul by A2 results in the ball being awarded to Team B at the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where A2 fouled B1, unless the free-throw attempt by A1 is successful in which case B will throw-in from out of bounds anywhere along the end line where the free throw was scored."

Merciful Heavens!! A fouls, and A gets the throws!?! What's the philosophy behind that? If A violates, they lose the throws, but a more serious infraction (foul) gets less penalty???

So, let's assume this is the first of a two-shot free-throw. If the ball is not yet released, do we clear the lane so that the throw will be "unhindered?" How do we explain that to Coach B?

What about after the bonus is in effect, how do we handle a foul by A2? Clear the lane, A1 finishes his/her free-throws, then change ends, B shoots, and go from there?

Does this seem bizarre only because I'm reading it at 11:30 pm (too hot to sleep -- record high today!!)

[devdog69]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Case Book 6.7 Situation B: " Prior to the bonus and after A1 starts the free-throwing motion, A2 commits a common foul by pushing B1 along the lane. Ruling: If the foul occurred after the ball was in flight, the point counts if the throw was successful and no substitute throw is awarded if not successful. If A1 had not released the free-throw attempt before A2 fouled B1, the ball became dead when the foul occurred and A1 is permitted an unhindered free throw. The foul by A2 results in the ball being awarded to Team B at the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where A2 fouled B1, unless the free-throw attempt by A1 is successful in which case B will throw-in from out of bounds anywhere along the end line where the free throw was scored."

Merciful Heavens!! A fouls, and A gets the throws!?! What's the philosophy behind that? If A violates, they lose the throws, but a more serious infraction (foul) gets less penalty???

So, let's assume this is the first of a two-shot free-throw. If the ball is not yet released, do we clear the lane so that the throw will be "unhindered?" How do we explain that to Coach B?

What about after the bonus is in effect, how do we handle a foul by A2? Clear the lane, A1 finishes his/her free-throws, then change ends, B shoots, and go from there?

Does this seem bizarre only because I'm reading it at 11:30 pm (too hot to sleep -- record high today!!)

I definitely think you need some sleep, Julie. It doesn't seem all that odd to me. The foul committed by team A has a penalty, i.e., a foul being charged to the offended team and possession of the ball. If a violation was committed by team A, it too has it's own penalty, i.e., loss of the opportunity to shoot the free throw. As to your question on how to explain to Coach B about clearing the lane, tell him/her that anytime a team will not be given an opportunity to rebound a free throw the lane spaces are not too be occuppied. And yes, I believe that is exactly what I would do if B was in the Bonus, clear the lane and let A shoot the free throw, go to the other end line em up and shoot B's. Isn't this exactly the way we would handle a false double foul, in fact in reading the definition for a false double foul, this seems to fit exactly.

[bard]

Have any of you seen a common foul committed while the freethrower has the ball? I can never recall seeing this called.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Merciful Heavens!! A fouls, and A gets the throws!?! What's the philosophy behind that? If A violates, they lose the throws, but a more serious infraction (foul) gets less penalty???

I'm guessing this is to stick with the philosophy of "administer the penalties for fouls in the order in which they occur."

So, let's assume this is the first of a two-shot free-throw. If the ball is not yet released, do we clear the lane so that the throw will be "unhindered?" How do we explain that to Coach B?

You'd clear the lane for both FT's - because posession is automatically going to change at the end of the series (b/c of the foul) so you won't need any rebounding opportunities.

What about after the bonus is in effect, how do we handle a foul by A2? Clear the lane, A1 finishes his/her free-throws, then change ends, B shoots, and go from there?

Yup. A2's foul shouldn't be ignored just because A1 is at the line.

[rockyroad]

I had this situation in a HS game this past season...A3 at the line for one-and-one...he has the ball and is ready to shoot...A4 and B3 are ready to "fight" for position and doing the stupid arm thing kids always do at the free throw line, when A$ uses both hands to shove B3...partner (who is lead) blows whistle and calls foul, I take ball back from shooter, we clear lane, shoot his first which he misses and then walk to other end and line up for two as A was over 10 fouls...neither coach said a word - either they knew we were right or they were too confused to say anything!!

[devdog69]

Originally posted by rockyroad
I had this situation in a HS game this past season...A3 at the line for one-and-one...he has the ball and is ready to shoot...A4 and B3 are ready to "fight" for position and doing the stupid arm thing kids always do at the free throw line, when A$ uses both hands to shove B3...partner (who is lead) blows whistle and calls foul, I take ball back from shooter, we clear lane, shoot his first which he misses and then walk to other end and line up for two as A was over 10 fouls...neither coach said a word - either they knew we were right or they were too confused to say anything!!

Probably the latter. Good job on handling it properly.

[Todd Springer]

Just a thought. If you can't explain it....Don't call it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Todd Springer
Just a thought. If you can't explain it....Don't call it.

It's simply a false double foul. Penalize in the order that they occur.

[rainmaker]

I guess that part that feels hard to explain is that A fouls, but the lane is cleared for A to shoot. If B isn't shooting in the bonus (thus B gets no shots), it appears as though B is being penalized for A's foul. I know that's not true, but it looks bad. And I don't know very many people that understand clearing the lane can happen other than a technical. So this would be one of those situations where a clear explanation should be given when the calling official reports to the table. How's this?

"Coach A, Coach B, we penalize fouls in the order they occur. A gets his foul shots first, then B gets the ball out of bounds for A's push."

That's about as short as I can get it.

But I still think A should lose which ever shot it was.

[Edited by rainmaker on Jun 13th, 2002 at 12:20 PM]

[rockyroad]

Juulie - keep in mind that A's shot is for a previous foul committed by team B...to take that away would be unfair...since A has not reached 7 fouls, the penalty for A's foul in the lane is the ball oob...this is no different than if A had the ball in play, and A3 set an illegal screen - B would simply get the ball oob...there really is nothing unfair about the situation...A gets his/her bonus situation and then B gets the ball oob...and your explanantion to the coaches would be perfect!

[Mark Padgett]

Juulie - of course the shot should still count if it's in the air at the time of the foul. It's the same as a regular (non-free throw) try. If, during play, A1 shoots and while the ball is in the air, A2 fouls B1 and the shot goes in, do you discount it? Of course not. You count the basket and then penalize team A for the foul by A2. The fact that it was a free throw doesn't change the theory.

[BktBallRef]

Juulie, think about this one.

A1 has the ball for an AP throw-in. A2 fouls B1. Team A doesn't lose the arrow.

A1 has the ball for an AP throw-in. A2 steps OOB and A1 hands the ball to A2. Team A loses the the arrow.

Hmmmm.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Juulie, think about this one.

A1 has the ball for an AP throw-in. A2 fouls B1. Team A doesn't lose the arrow.

A1 has the ball for an AP throw-in. A2 steps OOB and A1 hands the ball to A2. Team A loses the the arrow.

Hmmmm.

I am confused by this one, too. I understand the points above, and they are helpful. How would it be if an A player fouls B on the first shot of two, before the ball is released, I call it intentional. It is definitely "excessive contact!"

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I am confused by this one, too. I understand the points above, and they are helpful. How would it be if an A player fouls B on the first shot of two, before the ball is released, I call it intentional. It is definitely "excessive contact!"

Same as before - whether the foul is personal, intentional, technical, flagrant, or any appropriate combination, you clear the lane, A finishes shooting, then B takes his shots.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I am confused by this one, too. I understand the points above, and they are helpful. How would it be if an A player fouls B on the first shot of two, before the ball is released, I call it intentional. It is definitely "excessive contact!"

I was just attempting to show one of the few consistencies that exist in NF rules. Commit a violation in either of these situations and you lose something, either the arrow or a FT.

Commit a foul and you don't lose anything, but the opponent gains. He's either guaranteed to get the ball for a throw-in or shoot FTs.

Just one way to look at it.