Rhythm hop

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

...the coaches seemed to be complaining when I DID call this a travel. The coaches of the defensive teams did NOT complain when my partners did NOT make this call. Therefore, for consistency within the game, I stopped making this call. I virtually never hear a complaint about this not being called.

So this travel (by your definition) won't start getting called correctly until we complain? Moreover, coaches complaining incorrectly have in part caused you not to call what you believe to be a travel?

You can see how we become "howler monkeys." Many of us work hard to understand the rules to the best of our ability (part of the reason I read this forum so much). There are a lot of rules (and points of emphasis, too) that are knowingly set aside by an official's choice.

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

In addition, in games I watch, I almost never see this being called. I think that an important aspect of officiating is consistency.

I agree that you should be consistent - with your partners and with the actual rules of the game (and the points the NF has asked you to emphasize). Not trying to pick on you so much, but you'd be amazed how often officials tell me something that amounts to "I know that's the rule, but we're not going to call it that way."

You guys have every right to be frustrated with us when we don't know the rules as well as we should, but you can't really have it both ways. I know the rules reasonably well (as do many of my colleagues), and it's frustrating when I'm told which rules we're going to change or set aside on any given day.

-j

[hoopguy]

Have you ever seen Tyler Hansborough dunk off an inside pass? When he gets a pass inside for a dunk he normall does this exact thing and never is called for a travel. He catches the ball with both feet on the floor. Then takes a one two step and dunks. Never gets called. ACC refs must know not to call this. If I was reffing in the ACC I would not call it either.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by JoeT

So this travel (by your definition) won't start getting called correctly until we complain? Moreover, coaches complaining incorrectly have in part caused you not to call what you believe to be a travel?

You can see how we become "howler monkeys." Many of us work hard to understand the rules to the best of our ability (part of the reason I read this forum so much). There are a lot of rules (and points of emphasis, too) that are knowingly set aside by an official's choice.



I agree that you should be consistent - with your partners and with the actual rules of the game (and the points the NF has asked you to emphasize). Not trying to pick on you so much, but you'd be amazed how often officials tell me something that amounts to "I know that's the rule, but we're not going to call it that way."

You guys have every right to be frustrated with us when we don't know the rules as well as we should, but you can't really have it both ways. I know the rules reasonably well (as do many of my colleagues), and it's frustrating when I'm told which rules we're going to change or set aside on any given day.

-j

JoeT,
I will tell you that as a coach, I understand where you are coming from completely. The game of basketball has changed dramatically over the past 30+ years since I was in high school. I believe that five of the past eight years a POE has been "rough play in the post." ALL COACHES fully support calling the game tighter in the post, RIGHT UP TO THE POINT that the coach's best post player picks up his/her second foul two minutes into the game. If an official makes these calls two, three, four games in a row, the assignor will be calling them. The same goes with the "bunny hop" travel. You see this play all day long watching NCAA games on TV. Further, you will see it in nearly all HS games -- at least at the varsity level. It stopped getting called because coaches complained like crazy when it was called. Personally, I think that this play started at the college level. The college officials who also do high school games began not calling this hop at the high school level. Since the college officials are frequently some of the more respected high school officials, many of the other high school officials began following their lead. Now, the coaches do not want it to be called -- against them or for them -- in the vast majority of cases.

The bunny hop is now so common, that I wish (for the sake of you and the few other coaches who expect a call here), that the NFHS would just allow this move by rule. This scenario is not different than the "shrinking strike zone" in baseball. Call a strike at the armpit and the offensive coach would complain and the defensive coach would smile.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I can tell you that this call is NOT made in my part of the country by 95+% of the officials. To me, this is clearly a travel, but it is not called. I have accepted the fact that it is not called -- I must admit that I do not call it anymore as I was in the less than 5% who called it last season. Defensive coaches do not expect this call to be made, anymore.

The truly perplexing scenario here is that many officials will allow players to do the hop AND then PIVOT or take a jab step before dribbling.

There is no way around the fact that by book rule this is a travel -- as a point of comparison I ask if a player can receive the ball on a jump stop, immediately go up in the air to take a jump shot only to return to the floor with the ball because the defender would have blocked the shot, EVERY OFFICIAL will tell me that this is a travel. But the bunny hop is legal? Same foot action, just a smaller jump.

Once again, I have stopped calling the bunny hop because virtually all other local officials are doing the same. But, clearly, from a pure Rules Book perspective, this is a travel.

The argument that I have heard from fellow officials is that the player has not yet established a pivot foot when he lands on both feet upon receiving the ball (jump stop). They claim that the since the player has not established a pivot foot, the player can land again -- because you can't travel until the pivot foot hits the ground after leaving the ground. Of course, the problem with this logic is that a player could, in theory, bunny hop his way all the way to the basket since both feet would be landing at the same time, no pivot foot would ever be established.

And no, this is not a case of the players sometimes "squaring in the air" BEFORE receiving the ball. These situations are clear cases of shooters -- frequently outside the arc -- catching the ball with both feet on the ground or catching the ball with both feet in the air and then landing, THEN hopping with BOTH feet off the ground and then returning to the ground again before shooting. If you call this in my neck of the woods, you will be in a very small minority of officials.

Actually, that is NOT a travel, correct? If its a shot attempt, its either a block or a jump ball in that situation, right? Or am I thinking too much? Or not enough?

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

Actually, that is NOT a travel, correct? If its a shot attempt, its either a block or a jump ball in that situation, right? Or am I thinking too much? Or not enough?

The post that you quoted was saying that the shooter went up but came back down without the ball being touched or being prevented from being released. That is a travel.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by zm1283

The post that you quoted was saying that the shooter went up but came back down without the ball being touched or being prevented from being released. That is a travel.

Gotcha. In my feeble tv in my head, the shot was released, blocked, and then caught by A1 who came back down with it. THAT would not be a travel. But you'r right, if he went up and came back down without the ball being touched or prevented from being released, its a travel. i see what you're saying. Thanks!

[doubleringer]

I've had numerous conversations with other officials on this play over the last few years. I had a college conference assignor and DI official tell me, "yes it is a travel, no, don't call it." The women's side gave us the green light to make this call in the POE's this season. I like calling it. Allowing a shooter to set their feet illegaly is a huge advantage to the offense.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

This scenario is not different than the "shrinking strike zone" in baseball. Call a strike at the armpit and the offensive coach would complain and the defensive coach would smile.

For what it's worth, the strike zone in baseball, especially at the MLB and NCAA levels, has actually grown quite a bit over the past few years.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Welpe

For what it's worth, the strike zone in baseball, especially at the MLB and NCAA levels, has actually grown quite a bit over the past few years.

I agree. BUT, it did not happen until there was a tremendous uproar.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

I've had numerous conversations with other officials on this play over the last few years. I had a college conference assignor and DI official tell me, "yes it is a travel, no, don't call it." The women's side gave us the green light to make this call in the POE's this season. I like calling it. Allowing a shooter to set their feet illegaly is a huge advantage to the offense.

I had no problem calling it. I would have no problem calling it in the future. But, I will NOT be the only one calling it. If my peers would begin calling it, I would be happy to call it. It just isn't fair to the players if one of us calls the play a travel and the others lets it go. It's one thing to have one official "judge" that there is sufficient contact for a foul while another official "judges" that there was not sufficient contact for a foul in a similar situation. No two situations are identical. But, for something that occurs as often as it does in a game, to have one official calling the bunny hop a travel and the other two partners not calling this play a travel is a prescription for disaster.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

This one sounds like a standard lay-up to me. Both feet off the ground the moment the dribble is picked up/pass received.

I think this is one of the cornerstones of a lot of uncalled travels. A large percentage of the time both feet are not off the ground when the ball is caught.
If I cannot tell exactly when, I give the benefit of the doubt. But so many players now want to add something, a hesitation, a ball fake, even a 360 spin move. In cases like this it becomes very obvious that the player lifted both feet and returned them to the floor before the release of the ball. When you make the call, it erupts from every direction:

"HE GETS TWO STEPS ON A LAYUP!!"

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think this is one of the cornerstones of a lot of uncalled travels. A large percentage of the time both feet are not off the ground when the ball is caught.
If I cannot tell exactly when, I give the benefit of the doubt. But so many players now want to add something, a hesitation, a ball fake, even a 360 spin move. In cases like this it becomes very obvious that the player lifted both feet and returned them to the floor before the release of the ball. When you make the call, it erupts from every direction:

"HE GETS TWO STEPS ON A LAYUP!!"

Well, OF COURSE he gets two steps on a layup! (If he's an octopus and has a 3rd leg acting as a pivot foot) But I agree with you. travel!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

If he's an octopus and has a 3rd leg acting as a pivot foot.

Mark Padgett has a third leg also, but I'll let him tell you about it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I think this is a legal play.

NFHS 4-44
ART. 2 . . . A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.

That's not the play I'm talking about, Billy.

Player drives, picks up his dribble, jumps off both feet, lands on both feet simultaneously and then jumps for the shot.

Too many officials can differentiate between a player jumping off one foot or jumping off both feet.