i saw an illegal call by the ref in the bulls/rockets game
 

we've all seen bad calls, thousands of times, but have you ever seen a ref make a call that wasn't even legal? during the game, ron artest drove to the basket, and andres nocioni wrapped him up, and the foul was kinda hard, but not really. well, the ref saw the foul as too hard, so gave nocioni a technical on top of the regular foul. so i was like hmm i thought it's either a regular or a flagrant. turns out i was right. check this out, straight from nba.com:

"Section V--Conduct
a. An official may assess a technical foul, without prior warning, at any time. A technical foul(s) may be assessed to any player on the court or anyone seated on the bench for conduct which, in the opinion of an official, is detrimental to the game. A technical foul cannot be assessed for physical contact when the ball is alive. "

and i know what everybody is thinking, and i don't blame you. you think that i'm mistaken, and the technical must have been for arguing after the call, on somebody else, etc, but that wasn't the case. the announcers were slightly confused, and the coach asked the ref what's up, but i believe they were talking more of why was he called for a hard foul, instead of noticing you can't even call a technical for a hard foul. i'm just curious how a 24 year old who has no nba experience noticed this, yet the coaching staff, officials, and announcers didn't.

To my colleagues that work basketball, you're welcome.

huh?

You know what to do.

So, what's your source for saying the ref called what you say he did?

the bulls/rockets game, at the 4:15 mark of the 2nd quarter? usually what happens is, you assume the OP is truthful, and say something like "well, if what you say happened, happened, then yes, that was an illegal call". never heard of somebody wanting proof of something like this. you could ask for proof on pretty much any thread in that case.

The play-by-play clearly has two fouls being called (at the same game time -- 4:15 of the 2nd quarter). I don't know (nor do I care) whether "two fouls for one act" is allowed under NBA rules (I doubt it). It wouldn't be allowed under FED or NCAA rules.

I would find it surprising if an NBA ref didn't get the rule right -- but officials (in all sports) have erred before.

You haven't been here long, have you?

I'm going to assume an NBA ref did not call a TF on a contact foul, especially if he also called a PF on the same contact. Maybe something happened after the PF that drew the TF.

i love this forum, because on any other forum, they would be like omg it's one call, who cares. but this is an officiating forum, so it's perfect.

like i said, this is the first time i've ever noticed this. as far as the rules go, for a foul on the ball carrier, it's either a personal foul (shooting or non; 1-3 shots at the line) or a flagrant (2 shots and the ball; possible ejection)

i've been here for months. made over 100 posts probably. why?

i want to assume the same thing, thus why i'm here. the thing is, i replayed it many times (i would never come on here and claim something when i only saw it once in real time), and it was nothing more than a simple intentional foul, so he had nothing to complain about. as soon as he fouled, he went on with his business in a calm manner, not saying anything, and standing in his lane space for the free throw. then out of nowhere a technical, and the announcers talked about him getting a technical because it was a hard foul.

the PA announcer announced "technical foul on andres nocioni", not a defensive 3 seconds or something. and when they call defenive 3 seconds, they usually don't say who it was on (the PA announcer i mean), and definitely wouldn't leave out the words "defensive 3 seconds", so that rules that out.

about 15 seconds after the foul, when everybody was lining up on the line, neil funk said "the officials are gonna talk it over and see if that's a.." and he stopped there, probably going to say flagrant. nocioni said nothing all the way up to the call of the T.

so what APPEARS to have happened is they called the foul, then everybody started to line up on the lane while the officials got together and decided the foul was too hard, so they called a T?

i thought of one more possibility. mistake by the PA announcer, calling it on nocioni when it was on somebody else.

If that's what happened, I'm sure he'll be reprimanded by the NBA.

And, your post count is listed underneath your join date, November 2008, but that's irrelevant. My point was that we don't always assume the OP got the facts straight when they're claiming an official made an error like this. My first assumption is that there's information the OP didn't have access to that explains the perceived error.

The fact that he got charged with two fouls on this play tells me they either called him for something he said afterwards (you say the replay shows he said nothing, fair enough) or for contact after the foul. Perhaps there was continuing action after the foul that lead to the official calling the TF.

I highly doubt the NBA officials made a rule mistake. These guys know the book inside out, and if they do err its usually an error is interpretation. Its also very rare that if one officials screws up the other 2 dont know whats going on to correct it.

I highly doubt its as you say it was, and I would need some sort of evidence to believe you. Your many months (2) and over 100 (read: 46) posts would lead me to believe you are mistaken. I could be wrong, but from where I stand the evidence points me in that direction.

HAZAA! i figured it out. i kept replaying it, and i was noticing that the whistle appeared to blow about 3/4 of a second before the foul, and then again after. i'm sure that what happened was, when artest drove to the lane, nocioni lightly fouled him (this is what they called the foul on), then .75 seconds later, he wrapped him up, so they basically said that we already blew the whistle, and you continued to foul him.

it makes sense, because after the first whistle, they blew the whistle twice, as if to say 'hey, hey! plays over!' so my confusion is partly on the officials for T'ing up nocioni for fouling a fraction of a second past the whistle, and on the announcers for implying it was for the foul, not after.

although i still think they (funk and king) possibly thought it was how i thought it was, and just didn't know the rules. wouldn't be the first time. just a few weeks ago, hubie brown stated 2-3x that a flagrant foul is one shot and the ball, and then after he realized it was 2, he owned up to the mistake and said announcers should know the rules.

you guys seem to be under the impression that i'm saying that i'm 100% right, and nothing you can say will change my mind. if i thought i wasn't mistaken, and was 100% right, why would i come here asking questions? also, i could have 1000 posts, that proves nothing. if anything, age would be most indicative; i'd believe somebody who is 24 with 9 posts over somebody who is 17 with 1853 posts.

i knew i was probably mistaken (several people, including officials, not noticing the rules? c'mon), i just couldn't figure it out. from my experience on forums in general, a FEW of you should take some advice, which is: when you know or think somebody is mistaken, making smart *** remarks or flat out insulting them makes you look like an angry teen flamer. especially when you try and make him out to be the bad guy just because he then defends himself against your/others comments. i try and play dumb when people do this, and pretend i don't know they're insulting me. i just don't know why people get so insulting just because somebody says something wrong. forums are for discussions, and people are bound to be mistaken in discussions. this stems from other threads, not really this one.

I will go watch the Rachel Maddow show as penance.

Don't take offense to what we say here to you, its just lots of experience in similar situations where the OP does not have genuine interest but just want to troll around and waste our time. I am glad you came to a conclusion, and I do appologize if I offended

You're the one who wanted me to assume you had the facts right. I didn't think you were lying, I just thought there was something you missed. There was.

FWIW, I'd trust someone who is 35 or 40 over either of your hypothetical examples. My point had nothing to do with your post count, and everything to do with how long you've been at this site (I never mentioned post count, you did) and your statement of, "usually what happens is, you assume the OP is truthful."

You haven't been here long enough to know what "usually" happens. Again, I didn't imply you weren't being truthful, I asked what your source of information was. Your answer should have been, "the announcers."

Not exactly Olby, but it'll do.

Maybe that's because your post reads "Hey -- I caught the NBA making a mistake so basic that even a 24-year old with no experience knows the rule / call" instead of "Can anyone explain what happened at 4:15? Nocioni was given two fouls (a P and a T), but I don't see what he did to earn the T? Is the NBA rule different?"

And, for what it's worth, I believe that you are truthful in reporting what you saw. I do think it's likely that you didn't "see" the whole thing.

no need to apologize, i totally agree. why would anybody troll around and waste somebody's time on here, an officiating forum? best place to do that would be a general forum where there are lots of teens. like i explained, if somebody insults me, and then i defend myself, i refuse to be targeted as the problem, even indirectly. regardless of what people think of my questions, as long as i'm discussing things in a regular/polite manner, the person throwing insults should be targeted, not me.

absolutely. the older the better, that's why i'm here. not calling you guys old, just calling you over 30. i think i made a mistake posting that last part on this thread if i have no beef with you guys. didn't mean to make it sound like i did. it's just in some other threads, a few people on here have really tried to pick a fight with me, so i'm on edge and tend to be looking out for insults, when alls i'm trying to do is discuss things. that's what's great about this forum, is most of you, even when misunderstanding something, don't get all crazy and start throwing insults, whereas on another forum, i would have been flamed multiple times for what i said, even though i didn't insult anybody. so that's a huge reason why i'm here, and why i may discuss things that are possibly not really meant for this forum.

Whoah there nelly, I am still south of the Mason Dixon Line.

it's just how i talk, and i don't think it's uncommon for people to ask questions in the forum of statements. i take it too far though i guess. i just call it like i see it at the time (and at the time, i was damn sure of what i saw. turns out, in a way, i was 3/4 of a second wrong). the thing is, regardless of if i'm too bold or wrong, people replying with insults and smart *** comments isn't going to make the situation better, that's all i'm saying. i'll try not to be so bold with my statements.

heh. just sayin' i don't think there are many officials under 30. although i'm used to major sports on tv, in which case you rarely see anybody under 30. maybe high school is different, but i imagine the refs are the parents of kids that are in high school, right?

Yep -- exactly.

Sheesh.

Yes, it is a requirement in fact. I couldn't officiate high school football until my son became a freshman, which was the beginning of last season. I fathered him when I was 9 years old.


:confused:

These are just the kind of comments that don't make the situation better. I can't believe how mean-spirited you football guys are.

You're being sarcastic, right?

Are you doubting my virility? :(

I would never even think about your virility.

Why not?

My first high school game (JV) was the winter after I had graduated from high school. That was 22 years ago.

If you're talking about varsity games, it only makes sense that many of the officials are older, but it doesn't mean they all are.

Without too much rancor from the peanut gallery, dare I say that this has degraded into another "peanut gallery" thread...

I couldn't resist... :D

4:15 Andres Nocioni personal foul (Ron Artest draws the foul) 32-39
4:15 Andres Nocioni technical foul (1st technical foul) 32-39
4:15 32-40 Aaron Brooks makes technical free throw

Intentionally or not, I told you Steven Wright is in trouble.

Salmonella enteritidis ???
 

Yeah, but now we have to watch out for Salmonella. Make sure that you wash your hands with hot water immediately after you read this thread.