Elbowing

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Refsmitty

Situation BJV last night

A1 getting post position to receive pass into the post - I am lead -
A1 swings a pretty visious elbow but misses the defender behind him - I call elbow violation - what would you have?

Refsmitty:

There two possible infractions of the rules in this play. And we are paid to the big $'s to decide which one occured.

Play 1: A1 is just swining his elbows excessively in an effort to get people away from him so he can get the the rebound.

Play 2: Did A1 swing his elbow in an attempt to hit B1 and missed? Attempting to hit an opponent is a flagrant TF.

From the description of your play, I would go with Play 1.

MTD, Sr.

[Amesman]

OK, perhaps a bit far-fetched but what if a defender (say they're in a zone) swings the non-contact elbow? With perhaps some low-level "get out of my area" display but no intent to harm (No T)? It's a slow day here ...

[Adam]

It's a violation for the defender as well.

[Spence]

A1 rebounds a shot by B1. B2 and B3 immediately pressure A1. A1 in trying to keep the ball away from the defenders swings his elbows back and forth. No contact.

Anything?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Spence

A1 rebounds a shot by B1. B2 and B3 immediately pressure A1. A1 in trying to keep the ball away from the defenders swings his elbows back and forth. No contact.

Anything?

Maybe, maybe not.

MTD, Sr.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Maybe, maybe not.

MTD, Sr.

As a new official I've leaned towards the "maybe not" but I'm not sure what I would have to see to call the violation in this scenario.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Spence

As a new official I've leaned towards the "maybe not" but I'm not sure what I would have to see to call the violation in this scenario.

Spence:

I am glad you didn't think I was being flip in my previous response. I should have added that it is a HTBT type of play. As someone who has taught new basketball officials (MTD, Jr., is a second year official) I would actually hope that a new official would be more prone to put air in his whistle than not put air in his whistle.

The biggest problem with new officials is to call anything, because it is all new too them and there is so much information to process.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Maybe, maybe not.

Wow, such a definitve answer. Is that your final answer, and are you sticking to it?

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Wow, such a definitve answer. Is that your final answer, and are you sticking to it?

It's the message board equivalent of a weak whistle.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Wow, such a definitve answer. Is that your final answer, and are you sticking to it?

Maybe, maybe not.

MTD, Sr.

[iref4him]

This is what I have been told what to do -

1) If a player swings their elbows to create room or space and no contact --> elbow violation

2) If a player swings their elbows to create room or space and there is contact --> player control foul

3) If a player swings an elbow (not elbows) and misses --> technical foul. Then it is the descretion and intent to determine if you consider it flagrant or intentional. Flagrant, the player is disqualified. Intentional, the player stays.

4) If a player swings an elbow (not elbows) and makes contact --> flagrant foul. Flagrant, the player is disqualified.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by Spence

A1 rebounds a shot by B1. B2 and B3 immediately pressure A1. A1 in trying to keep the ball away from the defenders swings his elbows back and forth. No contact.

Anything?

Contact doesn't matter. If you deem the swinging excessive, call the violation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

Contact doesn't matter. If you deem the swinging excessive, call the violation.

Don:

Contact does matter, because if there is contact it means that a personal foul has occured.

MTD, Sr.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

Contact doesn't matter. If you deem the swinging excessive, call the violation.

You're not actually saying that it's a violation even if our intrepid elbow swinger contacts an opponent, are you?

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's a violation for the defender as well.

OK, blanking out and nobody's bailed me out yet: What's the penalty/action after this? Especially since it could be off ball/away from the play? Just blanking out.