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Terrapins Fan Wed Feb 04, 2009 07:07am
Coach lies to evaluator
 
I had an evaluation yesterday. My 1st this year. I knew it was coming. I was ready.

I did 3 games. Boys 6th, 7th and 8th grade. The evaluation was during the 8th grade game.

My partner and I were on top of our game. I feel we both did an excellent job. Evaluator did too. He had only 2 pointers, one for each of us.

Here's the problem. He comes to me and said " What's this I hear about you telling a coach that you don't call fouls or walking when the game is out of hand ( one team winning by 20 or more )" I said, I never said any such thing. He says, I just sat over there and had a coach AND his assistant say that you told them that tonight. I said, I never said any such thing. He didn't seem to believe me. I explained what had happened -

Here's the reality. In the 8th grade game, which the assistant was the head coach, the visitor was complaining to me after the 1st quarter. He was whining about calls, his team was down 16 - 4. I listened and as I walked away, the other coach ( the assistant that lied ) said, man if I talked to you like that you'd "T" me up. I said, coach, looking at the score I can understand his frustration, I am just giving his a little rope. That coach went off complaining that regardless of the score, I should have "T'ed him up. I walked away.

That's all that happened. I am disappointed that my evaluator took the coaches word for what happened. He got upset with me when I tried to explain what had happened.

There's not much I can do, I have refused to work any more games for these coaches either home or away.

Thoughts?

Chess Ref Wed Feb 04, 2009 07:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 575564)
. He didn't seem to believe me.

That's all that happened. I am disappointed that my evaluator took the coaches word for what happened. He got upset with me when I tried to explain what had happened.

There's not much I can do, I have refused to work any more games for these coaches either home or away.

Thoughts?
I don't know if the evaluator is assignor/group leader or what not but he can basically bite me if he's gonna listen to a coach about this nonsense, and then get squirrley when I give my version. It almost sounds a little Junior High School recess incident. He said, he said, no I didn't.

Then if I'm feeling particulary pissy I might venture over to these two titans of the coaching industry and give them a blast of my thought process also.

I know , I know not the most professional thing but I'm at the over it part of the season so I'm having evil thoughts about junior high basketball coaches.:eek:

JugglingReferee Wed Feb 04, 2009 07:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 575564)
I had an evaluation yesterday. My 1st this year. I knew it was coming. I was ready.

I did 3 games. Boys 6th, 7th and 8th grade. The evaluation was during the 8th grade game.

My partner and I were on top of our game. I feel we both did an excellent job. Evaluator did too. He had only 2 pointers, one for each of us.

Here's the problem. He comes to me and said " What's this I hear about you telling a coach that you don't call fouls or walking when the game is out of hand ( one team winning by 20 or more )" I said, I never said any such thing. He says, I just sat over there and had a coach AND his assistant say that you told them that tonight. I said, I never said any such thing. He didn't seem to believe me. I explained what had happened -

Here's the reality. In the 8th grade game, which the assistant was the head coach, the visitor was complaining to me after the 1st quarter. He was whining about calls, his team was down 16 - 4. I listened and as I walked away, the other coach ( the assistant that lied ) said, man if I talked to you like that you'd "T" me up. I said, coach, looking at the score I can understand his frustration, I am just giving his a little rope. That coach went off complaining that regardless of the score, I should have "T'ed him up. I walked away.

That's all that happened. I am disappointed that my evaluator took the coaches word for what happened. He got upset with me when I tried to explain what had happened.

There's not much I can do, I have refused to work any more games for these coaches either home or away.

Thoughts?
I would highly consider refusing to work any more games for these coaches, home or away. Of course, I wouldn't tell anyone why. I'd keep that to myself.

Truth is truth. It's sad that people live their lives like this.

Forksref Wed Feb 04, 2009 08:21am
It's surprising that the evaluator would take seriously what the coaches said. My perspective is that if he saw an official doing a good job out there that he would believe the performance was the truth. Rhetoric usually matches reality in these situations.

eg-italy Wed Feb 04, 2009 08:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 575564)
...
I listened and as I walked away, the other coach ( the assistant that lied ) said, man if I talked to you like that you'd "T" me up. I said, coach, looking at the score I can understand his frustration, I am just giving his a little rope. That coach went off complaining that regardless of the score, I should have "T'ed him up. I walked away.
...
Thoughts?
"Coach, that's my business, not yours."

Don't talk with a coach about the other one. Better, don't talk with coaches. :)

Ciao

Raymond Wed Feb 04, 2009 08:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 575564)
I had an evaluation yesterday. My 1st this year. I knew it was coming. I was ready.

I did 3 games. Boys 6th, 7th and 8th grade. The evaluation was during the 8th grade game.

My partner and I were on top of our game. I feel we both did an excellent job. Evaluator did too. He had only 2 pointers, one for each of us.

Here's the problem. He comes to me and said " What's this I hear about you telling a coach that you don't call fouls or walking when the game is out of hand ( one team winning by 20 or more )" I said, I never said any such thing. He says, I just sat over there and had a coach AND his assistant say that you told them that tonight. I said, I never said any such thing. He didn't seem to believe me. I explained what had happened -

Here's the reality. In the 8th grade game, which the assistant was the head coach, the visitor was complaining to me after the 1st quarter. He was whining about calls, his team was down 16 - 4. I listened and as I walked away, the other coach ( the assistant that lied ) said, man if I talked to you like that you'd "T" me up. I said, coach, looking at the score I can understand his frustration, I am just giving his a little rope. That coach went off complaining that regardless of the score, I should have "T'ed him up. I walked away.

That's all that happened. I am disappointed that my evaluator took the coaches word for what happened. He got upset with me when I tried to explain what had happened.

There's not much I can do, I have refused to work any more games for these coaches either home or away.

Thoughts?

TOO MUCH CONVERSATION...why did you feel the need respond to an assistant's comment? He made a comment, it did not need an answer. The more you talk the easier it is for someone to misquote or misconstrue what you say.

Jurassic Referee Wed Feb 04, 2009 09:46am
Listen to News and Italy....and STFU.

They can't quote silence.

Rich Wed Feb 04, 2009 09:52am
I was working a BV game last night. Visiting team was 10-2 coming in -- this was non-conference -- and the home team was 12-1. Home team is a bigger school, playing in a bigger school conference and plays up in its nonconference games (except for last night).

The visiting team got smoked from the opening tip to the final horn. About midway through the first quarter, the visiting bench, unaccustomed to this, started chipping on every call against them. I noticed it was the assistants doing 95% of the talking, so I went over in that direction and told the head coach to control his assistants -- I'm happy to talk to them, but I'm not going to have assistants yelling from the bench. He tried to "yeah, but" me and I stopped him and told him that this was how it was going to be.

I will handle polite questions from assistants doing their jobs (whose ball is it, where's the inbounds spot, etc.) but I will not take crap or defend a call to them. I'll talk to the head guy all night long if I have to, but not the assistants.

Man In Blue Wed Feb 04, 2009 09:53am
I think you learned a lot from this evaluation. One is how to take critism. You know what happened. You now know how to handle it better in the future. That's what an evaluation does.

I think you need to reconsider not working for these "coaches". They need good officials. And from your post I think you do a good job.

If you want to "stick it" to someone, I might consider not working for the evaluator. He's the one with the proble.

Rich Wed Feb 04, 2009 09:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 575564)
Here's the reality. In the 8th grade game, which the assistant was the head coach, the visitor was complaining to me after the 1st quarter. He was whining about calls, his team was down 16 - 4. I listened and as I walked away, the other coach ( the assistant that lied ) said, man if I talked to you like that you'd "T" me up. I said, coach, looking at the score I can understand his frustration, I am just giving his a little rope. That coach went off complaining that regardless of the score, I should have "T'ed him up. I walked away.
The reality is, you said too much. Another good rule of thumb is any comment about the game ("it's only a game") or the score ("looking at the score") is lighting a fuse. We're hired to work hard and (coaches think) work the same regardless of the score.

"Don't worry about the other coach" and walk away. If he persists, treat that separately (shut him down, whack him, whatever).

Terrapins Fan Wed Feb 04, 2009 09:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 575591)
TOO MUCH CONVERSATION...why did you feel the need respond to an assistant's comment? He made a comment, it did not need an answer. The more you talk the easier it is for someone to misquote or misconstrue what you say.
He was the head coach on 6th grade level, assistant on 7th grade level. That was the 6th grade game that he spoke.

Adam Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 575620)
He was the head coach on 6th grade level, assistant on 7th grade level. That was the 6th grade game that he spoke.
Maybe, but I agree it's a comment that is best ignored (most times).

zm1283 Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:05am
I'd ignore him or just tell him that I don't need his help with the other coach and let that be the end of it.

Raymond Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 575564)

That's all that happened. I am disappointed that my evaluator took the coaches word for what happened. He got upset with me when I tried to explain what had happened.
Usually where a evaluator is concerned if you have to use more that about 10 words in your explanation then you have done something wrong. Also, the evaluator was probably trying to get the point across that you were involved in too much conversation and wasn't really concerned with your reasoning. Your response to the evaluator should have been "My fault, I spent too much time talking to the coaches" (11 words).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 575620)
He was the head coach on 6th grade level, assistant on 7th grade level. That was the 6th grade game that he spoke.
You said assistant in the OP, but that's not important. It was still a comment from a coach. Either ignore it, say "that's enough", or 'T' him, whichever is warranted at the point in the game. But the response you gave only provided the coach with ammo. He wasn't asking you a question so he didn't need to give an explanation.

Adam Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:54am
This is what you said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 575564)
I said, coach, looking at the score I can understand his frustration, I am just giving his a little rope.
This is what the coach heard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 575564)
you don't call fouls or walking when the game is out of hand ( one team winning by 20 or more )"

Ref Ump Welsch Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:55am
In my opinion, if the evaluator comes out with that "concern" in that manner, then he's the one with the problem. I wouldn't take it with a grain of salt, just listen and say thanks, and get the hell out of Dodge. I would rather have my evaluator say "the coaches were saying something along the line of you were talking too much. Just something to consider." That would show support on my evaluator's part, and show he's not trying to throw me under the bus.

ref2coach Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 575564)
He says, I just sat over there and had a coach AND his assistant say that you told them that tonight.
My question is, why was the evaluator talking to the coaches? I am an evaluator/assessor in soccer, I avoid coaches. I move around and observe the game from multiple locations around the field. Input from coaches is not something I need or desire.

Following the advise from others regarding limiting discussions with coaches will serve you well.

zm1283 Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref2coach (Post 575655)
My question is, why was the evaluator talking to the coaches? I am an evaluator/assessor in soccer, I avoid coaches. I move around and observe the game from multiple locations around the field. Input from coaches is not something I need or desire.

Following the advise from others regarding limiting discussions with coaches will serve you well.
I was going to ask the same thing. More often than not, our evaluators don't go near the coaches. Sometimes they'll stop and say hi to them if they know them, but they don't go looking for input. They're too busy watching us to worry about what the coaches think.

Raymond Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref2coach (Post 575655)
My question is, why was the evaluator talking to the coaches? I am an evaluator/assessor in soccer, I avoid coaches. I move around and observe the game from multiple locations around the field. Input from coaches is not something I need or desire.

Following the advise from others regarding limiting discussions with coaches will serve you well.

It is not unusual for coaches to address complaints or concerns to an observer/evaluator. I work in a conference where this is accepted/expected. It's better than directly addressing the officials, IMO.

Juulie Downs Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
This is what you said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan
I said, coach, looking at the score I can understand his frustration, I am just giving his a little rope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
This is what coach heard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan
you don't call fouls or walking when the game is out of hand ( one team winning by 20 or more )"
Like I always say, treat coaches the way you treat 4th graders. You don't tell a 4th grader, "Not tonight, maybe tomorrow." If you do, he hears, "Not tonight, but tomorrow, I'll have the car all warmed up at 8:am and have $50 in my pocket to give you and you can invite four friends!"

Adam Wed Feb 04, 2009 01:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs (Post 575696)
Like I always say, treat coaches the way you treat 4th graders. You don't tell a 4th grader, "Not tonight, maybe tomorrow." If you do, he hears, "Not tonight, but tomorrow, I'll have the car all warmed up at 8:am and have $50 in my pocket to give you and you can invite four friends!"
My thoughts exactly.

shishstripes Wed Feb 04, 2009 02:30pm
I agree with what has been said, limit your conversations.

I learned the hard way. Early in my career I was invited to a tournament because of a cancelation. While "pre-tournamenting" (pre-game for the whole tourney) with the two other officials, the head official brought up a point of philosophy that I hadn't heard before and hadn't been calling that way.

I knew the players very well that were in the tournament and mentioned to a couple of coaches about the point brought up in our meeting and that a couple of players (A and B) would need to adjust their games because of it. Wasn't meaning anything by it.

Later, the tournament director pulled me off a game and said you made some comments and the coach believes you are gunning for one of his players as he saw that I worked hard and called games without bias.

I said too much because I said something. Lesson learned and I have moved on. I was upset with the coach just as you are but both of us got over it and are good friends.

mbyron Wed Feb 04, 2009 03:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs (Post 575696)
Like I always say, treat coaches the way you treat 4th graders. You don't tell a 4th grader, "Not tonight, maybe tomorrow." If you do, he hears, "Not tonight, but tomorrow, I'll have the car all warmed up at 8:am and have $50 in my pocket to give you and you can invite four friends!"
Reminds me of this:

http://soapboxrants.files.wordpress....-dogs-hear.jpg

JRutledge Wed Feb 04, 2009 04:16pm
There is evaluation at an 8th grade game? :rolleyes:

Peace

Adam Wed Feb 04, 2009 04:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 575821)
There is evaluation at an 8th grade game? :rolleyes:

Peace
Hey, just because they don't take basketball seriously in Chicago doesn't mean they don't in other areas. ;)

JRutledge Wed Feb 04, 2009 04:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 575823)
Hey, just because they don't take basketball seriously in Chicago doesn't mean they don't in other areas. ;)
They take is seriously enough not to listen to an 8th grade coach about anything. ;)

Peace

doubleringer Wed Feb 04, 2009 04:49pm
First of all, I agree with most that you should have just ignored the comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 575564)
I have refused to work any more games for these coaches either home or away.
Secondly, I'm wondering if any of the board's assignors would like to chime in on that. I'm not sure that refusing to work schools at the middle school level is a great choice for an official looking to move up the ladder. Now if you had to toss a couple players or the coach and had a really ugly game, I could understand staying away from that particular team for a while, but this was just a comment that was taken the wrong way. Unfortunately the evaluator got involved. I've found at every level I've moved up through that it is very beneficial to jump when an assignor asks you to take any game.


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