9-4; Through the Basket from Below
 

I need some opinions and direction regarding the ball passing through the basket from below.

Rulebook 9-4 states, "... or cause it to enter and pass through the basket from below.

The Casebook states, "The ball becomes dead when it enters from below and passes through."

My questions lies in whether the ball must pass through the basket and the entire ball be above rim level for the violation; or is a violation still warranted if the ball passes through the net and approximately half of the ball rises above the rim level, before beginning the downward path.

Image: Figure A = Violation, Would Figure B warrant a violation?
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/810...3419fd2.th.jpg

AND Passes THROUGH
 

I would not call the violation unless the ball is above the rim; however, I do not have an issue with others who would call it if any part of the ball enters the rim from below.

Things That Make You Go Hmmm ...
 

I actually had this call last week, first time in twenty-eight years, but in my case the ball didn't come back down through the basket, it rolled off the rim, to the side. Easy Call.

Do we then go to the arrow?

Alternating Possession ???
 

I believe that there are only two choices here. It's either a violation, or it's not a violation.

So whomever last touches it, it would be the other teams ball based on the violation, right?

"You Are Correrct, Sir" (Ed McMahon)
 

Rule 9 Violations SECTION 4 TRAVEL, KICK, FIST:
A player shall not travel with the ball, as in 4-44, intentionally kick it, as in 4-29, strike it with the fist or cause it to enter and pass through the basket from below.
NOTE: Kicking the ball is a violation only when it is an intentional act; accidentally striking the ball with the foot or leg is not a violation.
PENALTY: The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation.

Yes
 

I had this play occur in an 8th grade girls game. A1 drives to hoop. As she swooped a shot B1 makes contact on A1's wrist. The ball enters the basket from below bounces off the backboard and falls back through the hoop.

In one of those "amnesiatic" moments, I could not recall the diminutive last line of the rule 9-4-4 which has a heading of "Travel, Kick, Fist", I awarded the basket and one FT.

Correct ruling: Ball becomes dead when the violation occurred (entered basket from below). A1 shoots two (as a result of B1 foul)

Does the ball have to clear the cylinder from below in order for this to be called a violation?

To me the phrase "passes through" would indicate the entire ball would need to be above the rim.

The ball can never go above the cylinder; by definition. :)

Explain, please!

The rim is at 10 feet, The cylinder contiues up up up.

That is correct. According to the pictures provided in the OP, A is a violation while B is not.

The only debate is whether the ball must also come completely free of the net. Those who say yes argue that the net is part of the basket.
Those who say no point out that the definition of the basket states that the net is suspended below the ring, not pushed up into it and above the level of the ring.

1-10-1 . . . Each basket shall consist of a single metal ring, 18 inches in inside
diameter, its flange and braces, and a white-cord 12-mesh net, 15 to 18 inches in
length, suspended from beneath the ring.

In math, a cylinder continues indefinitely.
In basketball, it basically extends to the ceiling. On an outdoor court, it would extend indefinitely upwards.

Which still means the ball can't go above the cylinder. :D

Wrong Cylinder ???
 

It does? Don't you mean a right cylinder?

A cylinder is one of the most basic curvilinear geometric shapes, the surface formed by the points at a fixed distance from a given straight line, the axis of the cylinder. The solid enclosed by this surface and by two planes perpendicular to the axis is called a cylinder. In common usage, a cylinder is taken to mean a finite section of a right circular cylinder with its ends closed to form two circular surfaces.

No, he doesn't. The "right" means that the "ends" of the finite section are perpendicular (at a "right angle") to the "sides".

In theory, a cylinder is analogous to a line -- it has no end points. As the rest of the quote shows, in practice, it's used as being analogous to a line segment.


IIRC (I don't have the books with me) the rule on "passing through" doesn't mention the cylinder. The only rule that does has to do with BI (and it uses a pharase like "the cylinder, the bottom end of which is the rim." So, rather than JohnnyRingo asking, "the ball needs to leave the cylinder?," he should have asked, "the entire ball needs to enter the cylinder?"

Always Listen To bob ...
 

Thanks. I got it mixed up. This is what threw me: "A cylinder is taken to mean a finite section of a right circular cylinder with its ends closed to form two circular surfaces", from Wikepedia. How can one look at a finite section of something that is already finite? The definition implies that the right cylinder is infinite. Either I misunderstood the definition, or the definition is poorly written. I didn't follow my own rule here: It's alright to use Wikepedia for your first source, but don't use it as your only source.

In summary: A cylinder has no "top", or "bottom" (the circular planes), so the "sides" go on infinitely, the center being a line. A right cylinder has a "top", and a "bottom", perpendicular to the "sides", is therefore finite, the center being a line segment, and volume, and surface area, can be defined, and measured.

Our basketball cylinder, as described in basketball interference, has a bottom, the ring, but has no top, theoretically, the center being a ray, so it's not a true cylinder. Is is a right cylinder, with only a "bottom", and no "top"?

Would you say that the ball, if going upward from underneath the basket, clears the ring that is when you would call the violation?

There's your mistake.

Yes -- and, for me, personally, I wouldn't split hairs here. I'd give the benefit of the doubt to "it went through the basket."

Right -- it's 'Wikipedia'. ;)

Every section of a finite figure or solid is itself finite, including the section that constitutes the figure. Infinite figures are more difficult to define and depend on the kind of space (Euclidean, Reimannian, etc.).

Technically not a right circular cylinder unless both ends are closed.

What signal do you use for this violation? How about for a fist violation?

Same signal you use for a throwin violation.

Since there is no specific signal for either violation, the normal accepted method is to simply blow the whistle and use the open palm for a violation, then verbalize the specifics. "Ball came up through the basket from below." "Used the fist." Since signals are simply a method of communication, some officials might use some sort of hand signal (maybe a fist into a palm for the fist violation, but be careful about trying to come up with a signal for ball up through the basket...). But it's usually better to stick with the approved signals, and simply use your voice to communicate the violations that do not have a signal associated with it.

The FT not contacting the rim is another example of a violation that doesn't have a signal. I've seen many officials use the "swirly"/reset the shot clock signal, but it is not an approved signal.

It Would Be The "Funnest" Signal ...
 

I would love to see the NFHS make the "Swirly" an approved signal. Let's start a petition.

Kinda like the traveling signal on a throwin violation. It signifies a different violation.

I'll give you a swirly...

Sorry to bring this up again but I came across this while looking for a signal for a "fist" violation. Thanks for this post M&M, as I was about to ask about this very thing.

The football official in me was expecting to see an associated signal number for a violation or foul. I was more than a bit perplexed to find that was not the case. :)