I "T"ed up the score keeper.....
 

No misprint. I "T"ed up the score keeper for the visitors today. He's the guy keeping the book at the table.

I report the foul "12 black Illegal use of the hands", and when I do, the coach yells ( and BTW, he is winning at the time by 10 points ) "She wasn't any where near the play" The book keeper yells " She wasn't any where near the play." Bang. T Because I am not going to have the score keeper yelling at me during the game.

We also sat the coach for the rest of the game. I have never "T"ed at score keeper, but I figure he is part of the coaches staff and therefore, coach gets to ride the bench for the rest of the game. Right?

BTW, 12 black was where I said she was and she did foul the player and it was only her 1st foul....3rd quarter for your processing info.

I disagree. The scorekeeper is not part of bench personnel, even if the person is clearly associated with one of the teams. That person isn't even sitting in the team bench area.

You should have simply removed the offending scorekeeper. No T.

The scorers and timers are part of the officials for the contest. They are the table crew. Check rule 2.

They're part of the officiating crew, not bench personnel. Remove the scorer drom the table, send him/her to the bench and use the visitors' book as the official book.

But you don't assess a T on the scorer.

Is this scorekeeper the official scorekeeper, or a representative of the visiting team that is permitted to sit with the table crew (for some reason that benefits V's record keeping)?

He wrote that it was indeed the visiting rep at the score table. The person was most likely serving as the 2nd scorer with the person provided by the home team being the official book.

That's what I thought... just wanted to be clear.

Is the visiting scorekeeper covered by this rule?

Basketball
NFHS
Rule 4: Definitions
Section 34: Players/Bench Personnel/Substitutes/Team Members - Article 2
Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.

I would say no. Appears to me the intent of this rule is to cover those personnel who are traditionally located on the team's bench - not at the table.

PS - Rec game a few weeks back I had a scorekeeper and clock operator (one parent from each team) almost get into a fight. Man it was odd......I calmed them down - No T's! ;)

No. See rules 2-1 & 2-11.

I understand you rules references but he is not the "Official" scorekeeper.

Agreed, just have him removed and replaced. The T was unjustied and you cant back it up with the rules.

I understand your point. My point was that the coach did appoint him as the score keeper and therefore, yes a part of his crew.

I used to coach ( assistant ) and many times I had to do the books because we did not have a scorekeeper show up. I knew I was not allowed to coach from the table and I knew I was not allowed to criticize the officials from the table.

As usual it was not one thing that lead to the "T". I officiated this team about 2 or 3 weeks ago at their home. they have 3 coaches. As I was passing by the bench ( the far end away from the head coach ) Someone yelled at me about missing a call. As I passed the coach, I told her ( yes HER ) that someone was yelling at me from the end of the bench and she said, "Oh yeah, that's my assistant coach" I told her that I wasn't going to listen to anyone but her. She and her "other assistant" sitting next to her, yelled constantly during the game, I was trying not to "T" them up and succeeded.

So we come to yesterday's game, before the game started, I asked "who is the head coach?" The guy says. " You're looking at him" I say, then I don't want to hear anything from anyone but you. In the first quarter, the "assistant" coach is standing and coaching. I go to the bench and tell them that only the head coach can stand during the game, and "she" tells me that they are "co-coaches" I say, no HE is the head coach and only "HE" can stand. So they say, you mean only one of us can stand at a time.....I clarify. they behaved after that, until the problem with the table.

Thanks for your feed back.

No, sorry but that's not the way it works. He's part of your crew.

Your point is completely wrong, rules-wise,

Nor is a coach allowed to criticize the officials from the bench area.


Why would you make such a statement? There is no rule prohibiting an assistant coach from speaking with an official. You should answer polite questions from any coach. By the same token, you shouldn't allow yelling at a game official from any coach either.
Why are you actively trying not to charge a T to someone who clearly deserves one? That kind of thinking is insane. Either tell them to knock it off or assess the well-earned technical foul. The only thing that you succeeded in doing was sending the message to the them that it was okay to constantly yell at you. :( Don't make that mistake again.

Nicely done. :) (except for the part in red) See how well it works when you follow the proper protocol and don't mess around?

We are told from day one, we deal with the head coach only. Assistant coaches are not allowed to speak to us.

Now if they ask a question during a time out or intermission, that's acceptable, not during the game.

Okay, you have to do what you are told by the higher-ups and what is expected of you in your area, but I guess that I would have to ask why are your instructors telling you to do it that way?

I know that wasn't the case when I officiated in MD. I was never instructed to not speak with an assistant coach.

not quite right
 

All personell at the table invloved in the scoring of the game are considered part of the officials crew. Now you could make the argument thatthe non official book is not partof that crew, but I personally would be stretching it.

I usually do not remove them the first time, in any game at any level.
I usually go over to the table at a dead ball and explain to them that they are part of my crew, and therefore have no opinion as to what happens on the floor, and if they want to express an opinion as fan there are the stands and if they want to be part of the team there is the bench. but if they persist on doing this at the table - the door is over there and that will be their next destination if I have to deal with this again.

works out almost every time. once in a while you get some one who wants to move, and by doing so there is a big target on their their back no mater where they go. the administrator has them as fan and the coach has them if they go to the bench.

They tell us it just leads to trouble. Until the last couple of years ( 2 or 3 ) we we're to talk to the head coach either.

We communicated with the speaking captain only.

Do As they say!
 

If that is what you are told to do then d it that way.
I think you will have problems if you do not talk to the table, because they are there to help you out andyou should have a good raport with them at any level.
But if your people say do it that way then do it that way and justremove the clown if necessary.

I was talking about coaches, not the table. Yes we communicate with the table.

I made a mistake by "T"ing up the scorer. I see that now. But you can't allow the table to criticize your calling. Yes, he was a parent of a player, maybe it was his daughter that I called the foul on, I have no idea.

WHAT?!?!??!? :confused:

That's flat-out nuts!!! :eek:

Not criticizing you, but I think that's a very strange philosophy by someone back there.

Here is what we say in our pre-game with the captains " Who is the speaking captain? If your players or your coaches have any problems during the game, they come to you, you come to us, we don't want to hear anything from anyone but you"

We still use that, but we do speak with the head coach if he has a question.

I don't ask for speaking captains; although I find it's a more prevalent question around here than anywhere else I've reffed. I still have not found the information useful even when we get it.

Wow!
 

That is an interesting Philosophy - no talking to the coach?
Does that mean the coach can not talk to you?

We always have have Captains and We do ask for Speaking Captains per the rules.
How ever any player who speaks to me respectfully I will talk to, the only reason I use a speakig captain is if I want to accomplish something formally,
Such as a player who is starting to act like a knuckle head or the same with a coach or assistant.
I will ask the captain for little help with the individual.
other than that communication is a good thing to a point!

I'm interested in knowing who exactly made this decree in your association. I work JuCo games in Maryland with a lot of fellas who work Maryland HS ball all over your state. I've never heard that come up in any discussions.

I don't think you understand the rules references.

Maybe he understands the references but has not used them. ;)

How about doing this
 

Tell the score keeper to just keep the book and be quite, if they say another word they will be replaced. I think that would of solved the whole problem.

Be quite what? Be quite silent? :D

I think he understands the rule perfectly. 2-1 says that there is an official scorer. Singular. One. The visiting scorer does not seem, by rule, to be part of the officiating crew. 2-11 says the official scorer should compare records with the visiting scorer. It doesn't say the official scorers should compare records.

If the visiting scorer is not an "official" scorer, then he/she is a follower of the visiting team, who is allowed to sit at the table.

Personally, I wouldn't whack, but I don't think it's as obvious as you all are making it sound.

I've done this before and it's usually quite effective. It mostly happens during wreck ball, and you get an over-zealous parent who disagrees with a lot of your calls or thinks they know the rules and while I'm reporting a foul against their team, they just keep shaking their head in a you-just-made-a-bad-call kind of way. I tell them that since they're sitting at the table they're going to be impartial, and if they can't do it, then I'll relieve them of their duties and find somebody else who can do the job.

I agree. Get rid of him. He's not going to get any better.

I don't handle it this way, as I've never had any success with it. He/she usually wants to argue the point.

I go to the coach. "Coach, if I have any more problems with your scorer, I'm going to replace him."

I agree that if they are a pain, just have them removed. I'm wondering what the climate of the game was up to this point? It sounds like you were fired up for some reason or another. If the game had been ugly, maybe there were other situations that could have been managed earlier? I'd also like to ask about the person on the book yelling. Is it possible you did drop a number (its happened to all of us) and they were trying to get your attention? I wasn't there and I know I've thrown more than my share of weekend tourney technicals as I was coming up, both deserved and undeserved. I just think maybe you should look at the game management overall to help learn from the game. As always, just my opinion.

I admit I don't have any patience with someone at the table trying to referee, and I've replaced a couple, but I've never thought about penalizing the team with a technical.


I did see the PA guy at a local D1 university get replaced one night by the referee. The guy used a sarcastic tone when he announced the foul and the reporting official turned around and said something. I don't know what the PA guy said, but BOOM, he quickly tossed the guy. I thought it was cool, but the crowd response was, let's say unfavorable, the rest of the night.

it was an 8th grade girls game. It wasn't close. The team that got the "T" was winning. The girl I called the foul on wasn't in foul trouble. I had the right girl. If anything, they were wrong. I had the right player.

The visiting fans were out of control with their yelling about everything. I even had to get game management to sit in the stands between 2 families before anything bad happened. ( that was after the "T" ) But they were bad before that.

You are correct about how the rule currently reads, but do you know the recent history of 2-1?

The rule was altered for the 2003-04 season to read as it does in the current rules book. This was done without any comment, mention, highlighting, or notification of any kind. The NFHS didn't even call it an editorial change. :eek:

Here is how the rule looked in 2002-03:

Rule 2, Section 1 Game Officials
Art. 1 ... The officials shall be a referee and an umpire or a referee and two umpires who shall be assisted by two timers and by two scorers. A single timer and a single scorer may be used if they are trained personnel acceptable to the referee.
Note: The official's uniform shall be a black-and-white striped shirt, black pants, shoes and socks.
Art. 2 ... The scorers and timers shall be located at the scorers' and timers' table on the side of the court. It is recommended that the scorer and timer be seated next to each other.


Just FYI. ;)

Terps Fan,
Was that the first comment that the visiting scorekeeper made to you during the game? While everyone is focusing on the bench personnel vs. scorekeeper discussion, if that was the first thing you heard from that scorer, I would perhaps have opted for a warning before removal.

While it is hard to do at times, it is important to start each and every game from scratch (i.e. do not walk onto the floor with an attitude concerning what was said in the last game). To do anything else is unfair. Perhaps the coaches on the other team are worse -- you just haven't had them before.

Yes, that was the first remark he had made to me. But he yelled it at the top of his lungs. You can't have people yelling at you from the table when you are trying to report a foul.

2nd, I had experience with this team and this coach and it wasn't a good experience. I had 2 assistant coaches yelling at me during the last game that I refereed for them. I took that into the game with me and decided that I was going to eliminate that problem and I did.

My job is to referee, their job is to coach, not yell at me while I am trying to do my job.

Understand that I have been blessed to do mostly varsity games this year and we don't get as much of the yelling there, neither from the fans nor the coaches. At the 7th and 8th grade level you are getting a lot of parents coaching. Not to many stay too long. So, there is the inexperience factor.

But yes, I brought the experiences that I had with this team into this game and I tried to avoid the problems that I had with them in the past. I don't see how that is wrong. I didn't hold any grudge, just trying to avoid the problems.

I don't care who wins a game, I am just there to do a job.

Every game is a fresh start. When you walk into a game with this on you're mind, you are in a very similar mindset to a coach that thinks, "Oh, we had this guy last week and he screwed us on a bunch of calls."

We will not let coaches bring up things that happened in previous games, so we also need to go in with a "clean slate". This is extremely difficult to do at the lower levels when officials often see the same teams multiple times and even worse at the weekend tourney level where you are on a floor all day, but it is a mindset that can get you in looking for trouble when there isn't any.

At the same time, there's no reason not to be able to anticipate problems.

As I said before, it's no different than knowing a team has a tendency to steal the tip or back out too early on a free throw.

If you know a coach is a chronic PITA, deal with it early.

Agreed, this is a mind set for officials. Personally, when dealing with a coach that has a history, I talk about being aware of the bench during the game. To me, being aware of the bench puts me in the mind set that I'm not going to go looking for a T, but if a situation arises, it needs to be dealt with early.

From the wording, I get the feeling that Terrapins Fan was going into the game looking to T the team for actions in the previous meeting. There is a difference in being aware that problems may arise and looking for problems. I did my share of looking for problems early in my career and I found them when I did. :D

I didn't see that from what he wrote, but ok.

I am not "early" in my career, this is my 9th year. I was not looking for a "T"< I could have done that when the assistant coach was stand and coaching. I had already asked who was the head coach.

Would you really allow the score keeper to YELL at you when you are trying to report a foul?

Thought so.