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-   -   Tech foul is also a personal foul? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/51224-tech-foul-also-personal-foul.html)

Johnny Ringo Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:37pm

Tech foul is also a personal foul?
 
Player reaches accross line and strikes ball while still in possesion of the thrower - automatic tech. Does this also count against his personal foul total?

BktBallRef Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:42pm

Yes sir.

Johnny Ringo Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:53pm

At the NFHS level and the NCAA level?

dahoopref Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:53pm

2008-09 NCAA Men's Pg 136
 
Section 6. (MEN) CLASS B TECHNICAL INFRACTIONS
Art. 1. A technical foul shall be assessed to a player or a substitute for the
following infractions:
j. Reach through the throw-in boundary-line plane and touch or
dislodge the ball while it is in possession of the thrower or being
passed to a teammate outside the boundary line as in 7-5.8.a.

PENALTY: Article 1 and Article 2.a through i. Two free throws shall
be awarded to any member of the offended team. All
infractions count toward ejection but do not count toward
the team-foul total or disqualification.

Johnny Ringo Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:33pm

Thanks for the NCAA clarification ... what about NFHS?

JRutledge Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 572750)
Thanks for the NCAA clarification ... what about NFHS?

This T would go towards team foul count and player disqualification.

Peace

Nevadaref Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 572733)
Player reaches across line and strikes ball while still in possession of the thrower - automatic tech. Does this also count against his personal foul total?

You would be better served to refer to and think of this as the individual foul total as it is really a cumulation of both the personal and technical fouls received.

Adam Tue Jan 27, 2009 08:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 572733)
Player reaches accross line and strikes ball while still in possesion of the thrower - automatic tech. Does this also count against his personal foul total?

Now, if the player reaches across and earns the 2nd (or more) D.O.G. violation of the game, this is a team tech and does not count towards the player's individual limit.

rockchalk jhawk Tue Jan 27, 2009 08:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 572793)
Now, if the player reaches across and earns the 2nd (or more) D.O.G. violation of the game, this is a team tech and does not count towards the player's individual limit.

In this situation, does this also mean that the HC loses his box for the remainder of the game? And this counts toward team fouls, correct?

jdw3018 Tue Jan 27, 2009 08:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockchalk jhawk (Post 572814)
In this situation, does this also mean that the HC loses his box for the remainder of the game? And this counts toward team fouls, correct?

It does not count as an indirect on the coach. It does count toward the team foul count.

Adam Tue Jan 27, 2009 08:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockchalk jhawk (Post 572814)
In this situation, does this also mean that the HC loses his box for the remainder of the game? And this counts toward team fouls, correct?

Only team fouls. Coach gets to keep his box as it is not counted as an indirect. Just like 6 players or a book change.

The OP does not count towards the coach, either, as it's a player tech rather than a bench player tech.

BillyMac Tue Jan 27, 2009 09:22pm

Delay Of Game Player Technicals ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 572793)
Now, if the player reaches across and earns the 2nd (or more) D.O.G. violation of the game, this is a team tech and does not count towards the player's individual limit.

Are any delay of game technicals charged to the individual player? How about interfering with the ball after a made field goal? We know that crossing the boundary line and contacting the ball in the hands of the inbounder is a player technical, but that may not technically be a delay of game technical.

Nevadaref Wed Jan 28, 2009 07:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 573061)
Are any delay of game technicals charged to the individual player? How about interfering with the ball after a made field goal? We know that crossing the boundary line and contacting the ball in the hands of the inbounder is a player technical, but that may not technically be a delay of game technical.

Nope. Any T charged for one of the four items that falls under the DOG warnings will be a Team technical foul.

There are technical fouls which are charged directly to an individual player for delaying the game, but they are NOT for one of the four items listed under the DOG warnings.

BillyMac Wed Jan 28, 2009 07:17pm

Team Technical Versus Player Technical ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 573158)
Nope. Any T charged for one of the four items that falls under the DOG warnings will be a Team technical foul. There are technical fouls which are charged directly to an individual player for delaying the game, but they are NOT for one of the four items listed under the DOG warnings.

NFHS 10-1-5-B: Team Technical: Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play. See 7-5-1 and 8-1-2 for the resumption-of-play procedure to use after a time-out or the intermission between quarters. The procedure is used prior to charging a technical foul in these specific situations.

NFHS 10-3-5-A: Player Technical: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

Nevadaref: If a player delays the game by "preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play", how do you differentiate a team technical from a player technical? The wording seems very similar in both rules, almost exactly the same? I'm confused, as usual.

LeeBallanfant Wed Jan 28, 2009 08:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 572733)
Player reaches accross line and strikes ball while still in possesion of the thrower - automatic tech. Does this also count against his personal foul total?

1. In most instances would you not violate (crossing the boundary) before committing the Tech?

2. Is there still a provision for an offensive violation for your arm crossing the boundary while making throw in?

Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 28, 2009 08:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 573397)
1. In most instances would you not violate (crossing the boundary) before committing the Tech?

2. Is there still a provision for an offensive violation for your arm crossing the boundary while making throw in?

1) In NO instances would you call a violation first before calling a "T" for touching the ball while it's being held out-of-bounds by the thrower. There is one penalty only for the act described.

2) There <b>NEVER</b> was a provision for an offensive violation for the thrower's arm crossing a boundary line during a throw-in. <b>EVER!</b>

bob jenkins Wed Jan 28, 2009 08:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 573379)
NFHS 10-1-5-B: Team Technical: Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play. See 7-5-1 and 8-1-2 for the resumption-of-play procedure to use after a time-out or the intermission between quarters. The procedure is used prior to charging a technical foul in these specific situations.

NFHS 10-3-5-A: Player Technical: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

Nevadaref: If a player delays the game by "preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play", how do you differentiate a team technical from a player technical? The wording seems very similar in both rules, almost exactly the same? I'm confused, as usual.

What are the four warnings? What are the Team T's in 10-1-5c, d, e, f?

See any correlation?

LeeBallanfant Wed Jan 28, 2009 08:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 573399)
1) In NO instances would you call a violation first before calling a "T" for touching the ball while it's being held out-of-bounds by the thrower. There is one penalty only for the act described.

2) There <b>NEVER</b> was a provision for an offensive violation for the thrower's arm crossing a boundary line during a throw-in. <b>EVER!</b>

For item #2 above, since no violation, what happens when thrower-in while faking a throw-in has his arm cross boundary and touches the hands or body of the defensive person who has a legal position (nothing crossing boundary).

BillyMac Wed Jan 28, 2009 08:56pm

Nice Try, But, As Usual, I'm Still Confused ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 573402)
What are the four warnings? What are the Team T's in 10-1-5c, d, e, f ? See any correlation?

Four delay warnings are for:
1) Free throw huddle.
2) Defender crossing plane of boundary line during a throwin.
3) Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play.
4) Failure to have court ready after timeout (water on court).

bob jenkins: I'm still confused about 10-3-5-A: Player Technical: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play. Is delaying the game by "preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play" always a team technical, or can it be a player technical, and how do you tell the difference. If it's always a team technical, why the need for 10-3-5-A? Sorry, but I'm still confused.

bob jenkins Wed Jan 28, 2009 09:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 573409)
For item #2 above, since no violation, what happens when thrower-in while faking a throw-in has his arm cross boundary and touches the hands or body of the defensive person who has a legal position (nothing crossing boundary).


What happens? Play on.

RookieDude Wed Jan 28, 2009 09:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 573410)
Four delay warnings are for:
1) Free throw huddle.
2) Defender crossing plane of boundary line during a throwin.
3) Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play.
4) Failure to have court ready after timeout (water on court).

bob jenkins: I'm still confused about 10-3-5-A: Player Technical: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play. Is delaying the game by "preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play" always a team technical, or can it be a player technical, and how do you tell the difference. If it's always a team technical, why the need for 10-3-5-A? Sorry, but I'm still confused.

BillyMac:

The two plays that I see when "Delaying the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play"...

are, for example, when a player hits the ball after a made basket. I have one of the four DOG warnings.

...the other delay, for example, is when a player might not give the official the ball when requested. There I have a player T.

Both are delays...but, each have different consequences to the player.

bob jenkins Wed Jan 28, 2009 09:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 573410)
Four delay warnings are for:
1) Free throw huddle.
2) Defender crossing plane of boundary line during a throwin.
3) Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play.
4) Failure to have court ready after timeout (water on court).

It was a rhetorical question.

Quote:

bob jenkins: I'm still confused about 10-3-5-A: Player Technical: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play. Is delaying the game by "preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play" always a team technical, or can it be a player technical, and how do you tell the difference. If it's always a team technical, why the need for 10-3-5-A? Sorry, but I'm still confused.
It can be a Team T (if the "entire" team is causing the delay) or a player T (if only one player is causing the delay) and applies to delays other than those that get a warning.

Look -- sometimes s*** happens. So, the rules committee decided that when certain, relatively common, and sometimes accidental things happen, the team should be given a pass the first time. Those 4 things get warnings.

Other delays get a T.

Prior to last year (?), it would / could / should have been a T for spilling water during a TO (and not having it cleaned up, etc.). That would have been penalized under 10-1-5a. Now, its part of the warnings.

Here's one possibility of a player T under 10-3-5A: Player A1 takes a "legal guarding position" in front of player B1 who is trying to move to become the inbounder. Player A1 continues to move and "block" B1 frome getting to the inbounds spot, and refuses to stop after the official asks tghe player to stop.

BillyMac Wed Jan 28, 2009 09:08pm

The Most Confused Forum Member ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 573414)
The two plays that I see when "Delaying the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play"...are, for example, when a player hits the ball after a made basket. I have one of the four DOG warnings....the other delay, for example, is when a player might not give the official the ball when requested. There I have a player T. Both are delays...but, each have different consequences to the player.

Good examples. Thanks. But the language in the two rules is so similar, almost exactly the same. That's what still confuses me.

LeeBallanfant Wed Jan 28, 2009 09:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 573411)
What happens? Play on.

Ok, lets take it one step further, defensive player legally slaps ball out of hands of thrower-in who has had his arm cross the boundary line.

My interpretation of the above (when thrower in touches legally positioned defensive player) would be a throw in violation for failure to throw the ball directly into the court.

Adam Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 573423)
Ok, lets take it one step further, defensive player legally slaps ball out of hands of thrower-in who has had his arm cross the boundary line.

My interpretation of the above (when thrower in touches legally positioned defensive player) would be a throw in violation for failure to throw the ball directly into the court.

The defense knocks it out? Where does it go? If it goes in bounds, play on. If it goes out of bounds, give the ball back to A (assuming B was the last to touch.)

Nevadaref Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 573423)
Ok, lets take it one step further, defensive player legally slaps ball out of hands of thrower-in who has had his arm cross the boundary line.

My interpretation of the above (when thrower in touches legally positioned defensive player) would be a throw in violation for failure to throw the ball directly into the court.

Your interpretation is incorrect.

Please take a look at 9-2-10 Note:
"The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area before the ball is released on the throw-in pass. The opponent in this situation may legally touch or grasp the ball."

Nevadaref Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 573410)
Four delay warnings are for:
1) Free throw huddle.
2) Defender crossing plane of boundary line during a throwin.
3) <strike>Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play.</strike> Interfere with the ball following a goal.
4) Failure to have court ready after timeout (water on court).

bob jenkins: I'm still confused about 10-3-5-A: Player Technical: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play. Is delaying the game by "preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play" always a team technical, or can it be a player technical, and how do you tell the difference. If it's always a team technical, why the need for 10-3-5-A? Sorry, but I'm still confused.

Billy,
First, you have one of the DOG warnings incorrect.
Secondly, there are provisions in the rules book to cover non-DOG situations in which either a team or a player delays the game. These situations have nothing at all to do with the DOG warnings. Furthermore, it is generally clear whether to penalize the individual player or the entire team.
Here are a few examples:
a. Player fails to be in the semi-circle to attempt the FTs when the official is ready to administer.
b. Player fails to give the ball to the nearest official following a whistle, such as after a foul or violation.
c. A team fails to return to the court in a timely manner after the halftime intermission (stays in the locker room) and delays the restart of the game by a full minute.
d. A team fails to have two players occupy the two marked lane spaces nearest the basket during an opponent's FT attempt and the RPP is not in effect.


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