Player pushes Official
 

Ran across this article in local newspaper.
http://highschoolsports.mlive.com/ne...ses-cool-game/

"With 48 seconds left, and Cedar Springs leading 57-54, Comstock Park junior Zach Mull was whistled for a technical foul. Four seconds later, a technical was called on Panthers senior Davary Anthony, who reacted to the call by pushing one of the officials. Anthony was spared an ejection as the technical was his fifth personal foul. With 20 seconds left, the Comstock Park bench was whistled for the team's third technical in a 28-second span."

What would you do if pushed?

Buh Bye! Don't care if it was his fifth or not; it's still gonna be flagrant.

Agreed. He got off on a technicality, when instead, a message should have been sent.

Flagrant. The paper may have the penalty or accessed foul incorrect. Since in high school the player is not required to leave the gym, many get confused.

-Josh

Agreed. This player's 5th foul is a flagrant. Buh-bye by two different slices. I would be clear to report it as such too.

Must eject..
 

If pushed by a player intentionally, I would eject the player. Just because he was disqualified by his fifth foul, in case sited above, is not enough. Technical fouls on bench personell are indirect to the head coach. Whack the player a couple of times and eject him and disqualify the head coach. When the coach has him running sprints until he's eligible to play again, that may get the players attention regarding the control of his emotions!

BTW In Ct when a player is ejected he must sit out the next game.

The flagrant foul must be assessed. In Massachusetts, a player with a flagrant foul must sit out the next two games. There is no such penalty for being disqualified for five personal fouls.

Even more severe is the punishment for pushing the official, which is clearly an assault. Under Massachusetts high school rules, a student or coach who physically assaults an official shall be expelled from the activity immediately and banned from further participation or coaching in all sports for one year from the date of the offense.

I would not hesitate to write up that report.

Not required. One flagrant is plenty.

What do you base booting the head coach on?

No rule basis. The T for pushing the official was his 5th foul, so he wasn't bench personnel.

Indirect Technicals
 

add up to a head coaches disqualification.

When a player fouls out he becomes bench personell, in Ct anyway!!

In VT it is 2 more games

Not until the coach has been notified.

Where are you getting the three indirects here?

The first two techs were on players, not the bench. The 2nd one happened to be the player's fifth foul, but this does not get assigned to the HC.

The third one would be an indirect, but that's it.

How does the coach get DQ'd here?

that is true but the incident occured while he was a player not bench personell to the technical can not be applied to the coach indirectly.
so you have
two technicals on players and a bench technical
which equals one indirect on the coach

even if you whacked the kid twice that would still only be two indirect on the coach and it requires three indirect or combination of two and a direct to eject the coach.

In through the nose, out through the mouth...
 

I understand that emails don't show inflection, however, what I was try to say is once the player pushes the official, he's should be ejected, now he's bench personell, at this point every time he said or did something from his location on the floor to the bench, I would add another T. When we get to three the coach is gone too. I think if the coach has to leave because of player behavior, there will be repercussions that the player will have to deal with later.

I've actually done this very procedure in a adult rec league, flag foul, he disagreed, T, T ,T - see ya in a couple of weeks. Sometimes you just have to show 'em who's in charge.

Rediculous to go looking for stuff in this case. It would be a quick way to end my career.

During a time out, a HSJV boy's player calmly came over to tell me that a player on the other team was pushing him in the stomach. He then proceeded to give me a demonstration by say, "like this", and lightly pushed me.

I decided that he meant no harm, so I just said , "do not touch an official!". He must have apologized two or three times.

Should I have tossed him?

As already stated, you are completely wrong. The player isn't officially disqualified and become bench personnel until his head coach is notified by an official. Sez so right in NFHS rule 4-14-2. Iow the coach will <b>NOT</b> receive any indirect "T"s until after you have notified him of the players disqualification.

If you used that procedure in an adult rec league, you screwed the coach with your failure to know the appropriate and applicable rule.

If you're gonna show 'em who's in charge, it's not a bad idea to learn the rules first.

Looks to me like he's gonna take the opportunity to find three more T's against the perpetrator for the sole purpose of ejecting the coach. That's even worse than not knowing the rules, IMO.

Maybe I missed something in the article, but I did not read anything that suggested the player was not ejected other than the implication by the person writing the story. And we all know how accurate those people are when it comes to rules. For all you know, it was rather clear he would not have been in the game and that a report was filed with the appropriate authorities to take further action. There are no specific signals that we give to eject someone other than what some might practice based on experience.

Peace

no you should not -- players and coaches should NOT touch an official 98% of the time -- your stich falls in the 2% of the time where its not a big deal.

thanks. I had to make a quick decision, and I thought I did right. The kid had the look of "oh my god, I touched him and he may throw me out look"

You have to look at the intent. These are kids after all and, albeit rare, some might just not know better. Besides, they're stripes we wear and a whistle we hold, not a crown and sceptre. You did right.

Ok, ok
 

Clearly, I shouldn't post anything, I should just read and learn from you masters.

I was just trying to make a point that as officiating is my avocation, that a frustrated athlete should in no way be able to disrespect me as a person or official.

And to call me out for "If you're gonna show 'em who's in charge, it's not a bad idea to learn the rules first." is a little harsh. I've been involved in basketball for 40 years, 20 as an official. I know we try to get it right but lighten up a little.

This forum will not hear from me again. :(

Good luck!

You're the one who said you'd find Ts where there aren't any for the sole purpose of DQing the head coach.

Correct...
 

A player is the direct extension of the coach, if the player thinks pushing an official (read me), then the coach is not doing his job.

I like a good arguement as much as the next guy, this forum is just not the place to take things as seriously as was directed at me.

-- ;)

No, he wasn't touching you in an unsportsmanlike manner or to be disrespectful. Just trying to show you something.

Not in this case he's not.

Dude, you've been on this board longer than I have, and this is what sends you packing? That was mild.

The NFHS disagrees with you, BTW, in that they don't assess player Ts to coaches unless they're on the bench. Looking to pile on is a bad idea here, and would really tell everyone you're a hot head (whether or not that's true.)

If you believe that then why not just T/eject the coach? Why make the stretchy iffy technical indirect calls?
________
Live sex

Suppref:

I do not know to which IAABO Board you belong (I don't have either my H.S. or College IABBO Handbooks in front of me to look up what Board covers Norwalk), but if I were you I would start studying the rule book and the Refresher Exam. I know that there are questions on the Refresher Exam (because I am on the IAABO Rules Examination Committee) that deal with when a disqualified player becomes bench personnel.

So, my charge to you is to tell me Forum when does a DQ'ed player becomes bench personnel?

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Suppref, I just checked the IAABO website. Norwalk, is in Board #9, and Board #9's Intepreter/Trainer is Lou Filippetti, and Lou is a personal friend of mine, so you had better have the correct answer for the Forum.

Mark, he knows the rule. He's advocating "finding" three more techs on him after he's DQd so his coach can feel the pain, too.

Wow. That is so far out of line it makes me wonder what the association is doing putting the likes of this guy on a rules committee. He's actually threatening a poster on an internet forum with going to his buddy the interpreter because he doesn't like the poster's commentary? The poster "better have the correct answer" because the interpreter is a friend of his?

Nonsense such as this hurts the credibility of all of us. Getting a rule wrong is one thing; it happens and, as well all know, most officials question their own rulings as much as anyone who sees them or hears of them. But threatening retribution for an event you weren't involved in on the basis of internet forum postings is reprehensible and inexcusable.

Get a grip.

I enjoy this forum for the 3 sports I officiate. I'd like to think I'm a better official due to this forum, and want to thank those intelligent posters, including Mr DeNucci, for all their help.
Being a "glass half full" type of guy, I'm just going to believe that Mark probably regrets the "threat" comment as being a bit overboard, and move on.
The Forum Moderators are the only internet police we need here...

It's okay... you're new here.

If you're an archangel, shouldn't you not need a forum like this one? :D

BTW, which archangel are you? :)

I wouldnt presume to put myself in that class. Has more to do with a nickname from when my sons were younger.

I was somewhat joking with a player I've known for quite some time and he spanked my butt. I told him he crossed the line between good joking and bad judgement and gave him a T. He was ticked..

At the risk of repetition, keep in mind that the player isn't DQed until the coach is notified. If you call what amounts to a fifth foul (or a flagrant, or second T), the player is not DQed until you notify the coach. So don't think that you can't make another appropriate call just because you know its his fifth foul (or whatever).

If you are offended at being called out for being wrong, I have a hard time believing you've officiated basketball for 20 years. We take being right and wrong on this forum seriously, just as we should.

Your opinion about the coach's relationship to his or her players is relevant to a discussion, but not to a ruling. The rule itself, already stated, is clear.

I actually think you are on to something: a DQ'd player (and players are always DQed and not ejected, regardless of the offense) shouldn't get a free verbal shot at the officials before the coach is notified. Yes, a T would give them 2 shots, but with free throw shooting these days...

Anyway, I'd support a change to make a coach more responsible for his soon to be DQed players still on the floor. But for now, we work the rule as written.

The post you're responding to is 11 months old. Not sure why 'mathuc' felt compelled to share his not very compelling anecdote and resurrect this thread....

Seriously?

I'm really lost...

1) How did I miss this thread back in January?

2) What does mathuc's post have to do with this thread?

2a) What Snaq said in regard to the post: "Seriously?"

I seriously hope not.

Ejection Reports ...
 

By rule, I believe that you are correct, but here in the Constitution State we have to fill out "ejection reports" for players who are "disqualified" for a flagrant foul, or for having been charged with a second technical foul, in addition to coaches who are really ejected, as in "You're Outta Here".

Flagrant technical- report it to your local admin.

i've said it before and I'll say it again- I don't like the NFHS rule that a player who is "ejected" gets to sit on the bench. I think if someone is that big of a goof they can watch from the dressing room.

Now I know you can banish them if you feel it's neccessary with an adult supervisor, but I still don't like the rule. Every other rule set to the best of my knowledge makes the ejected person leave the vacinity of the court.

People talk about the potential liabilities if someone gets the boot and is unsupervised, but it's not an issue in minor baseball ( which I also officiate) or minor hockey- which I watch. Ejected players go buh bye.

bench personel can be given flagrant fouls... he has to get one in this case if not anyone fouling out can go after a ref?

You're kidding aren't you?

Schools have a whole different set of supervision and liability concerns that don't exist elsewhere.

Did our wish come true?

Who knows? That was back in January ;)

even though the technical was his fifth foul, I would assess an ADDITIONAL FLAGERANT FOUL. In OHio, that means an automatic ejection and paperwork filed with the OHSAA. The player would then be suspended for two games.

Player pushes Official
 

the only contact between players and Officials should be the shaking of hands
during the meeting with Captains.

Although we as Officials have to protect ourselves , if all possible try to block the punch or swing but please do not retaliate

Yeah, I noticed that long after I posted.