Had one of those weird games tonight. Middle game of three JV girls. The home team coach is the main organizer of this league. His girls were obviously superior to their opponents.

By the time we were midway through the second half, his team was up by 45. They were still pressing and continued to press the entire game. They won by almost 50.

Neither my partner nor I said anything because this coach is scheduling us for the rest of the summer league and also because the other coach never said a word.

It still struck me as horsepucky.

Gee - it was more fun than a barrel of howler monkeys.

BTW - I had one funny play. It was an inbound on the endline. A1 inbounded and the pass was kicked by B1. I went to administer the resulting inbound in the same place and before I gave the ball to A1 she said, "Whoa - this is like that deja vu thingie."

I thought I had been transported into a Cheech and Chong movie.

in situations such as these, the winning team is usually trying to practice their press and get better at it or just really hate the other team. me, i tend to give all the 50/50 plays to the losing team in hopes to break the press. but if their press is good and just breaking the other team down its hard to do anything but feel sympathy for the losing team.

Mark,
I never say anything.
Everyone knows what's going on.
I am not inclined to change my game like crew does.
I merely bite down harder on my Fox.
mick

I agree. Changing the way you call in a 50 point blowout requires empathy for the losing team. I refuse to feel
empathetic towards either team.

I hate it. The other team hates it. But what are we suppose to do. We only manage the game, we don't coach it. The other coach may be practicing the press so assume innocence and don't let your feelings run away with you. I do have a tendency to call the plays tighter in that situation. This time of year have fun with it. If it were February and they were pressing like that, I wouldn't be so lenient in the situation.

not appropriate
 

Since summer games are still a part of the educational process, running up the scores is not acceptable. I inisted last year that a league invoke a 20 point rule. A team ahead by 20 in the second half could not press. During the regular season you cannot do anything about it.

If a team is blowing out someone and still pressing I call every little touch. If the coach is smart, he gets the message and backs off. High school basketball is an educational activity.

huh?
 

Mark, I'm disappointed if that's the reason (at least one of them, I edited down your post which listed others). Why would the home coach, the tournament directing coach, the league directing coach, or anybody else get any extra consideration? I understand the instinct, but I'd hope that if thought something needed to be said or done, this wouldn't be a reason to stop you.

Actually, I try to use situations like this to better myself. Do I have good position?, Am I trying to anticipate the call? Slow down, breathe, watch the play develope.

Re: huh?
 

Obviously, you've never officiated ;)

I think you're mixing apples with oranges here. The fact that this coach was in charge of this summer league has absolutely no bearing on how I normally call a game. What I meant was that I would not go out of my way to make a comment to him about pressing. Comments such as these are not part of the calling of a game, but are sometimes given in rec leagues as part of an official's perception that a coach is not displaying good sportsmanship. It's really not our business, but we do it anyway sometimes.

I figured he had a specific reason for doing it his way and I didn't want to draw unnecessary ire from him for criticizing his methods. It could very well be that this is how both coaches play the game, or perhaps he wanted to work on his press.

Also, I disagree with those who change the tightness of their calls in this situation to "send the coach a message." That just penalizes the players. I think that if you want to get a message to a coach about this and you feel that strongly about it, you should say something to the coach, not penalize his players.

summer league
 

I think you are taking summer league a little too serious. As a teacher, coach and official when a coach is out of line in a summer league game, I have no problem making small changes in how I call a game. It is not hurting the kids. they don't care who wins in JUne or July. They just want to play.

As for me, I work on my fundamentals, get in some extra running and have some fun.

Relax a little.

Re: summer league
 

I guess things are different where you are. Around here, summer league is taken very seriously. HS coaches come to watch the teams, and the players try to impress those coaches so they will have a leg up when school starts and teams are picked. Plus - there are a lot of parents who attend and believe me, they care who wins.

very different
 

I am in the S.F. bay area. While we have our share of gung ho summer coaches, things are obviously different. Are you an educator? To me, this is all part of the educational process , and if I see something that is wrong I will call someone on it, especially during summer when there is little or no control by school administrators, A.D's etc.

I try to work leagues that have a 20 point rule. No pressing in the second half when up by 20 or more. If there is no rule in the league I have been known to get it added.

Obviously, during the regular season this is impossible. Will a team up 40 and still pressing against an outmanned team get any breaks from me? No. As I said before, they get no breaks. As an example; if the ball goes out of bounds and it is close, figure who is getting the ball. Any contact on the press is a foul. A smart coach gets the message. Does it mean I am influencing the outcome of the game? No. the game is already decided. Does it mean I am trying to add a little sportsmanship to it. Yes.

If people disagree so be it. I have no problem. I feel very confident in doing it and will continue if the need arises. Now obviously, this does not happen often.

Now we all know that sometimes a huge lead is not safe. This can happen when two strong teams meet and one team is capable of coming back, I am not talking about that. I am referring to the team that can't even get the ball over halfcourt against a press. At the boys varsity level you do not see this often, but at the girls level, even varsity, it can happen with some regularity.

A coach up 45 and pressing in a summer league game needs some guidance. If no one else will give it, I will.

I think one of the things we need to do as officials, is to recognize problem areas. If a team is starting to get frustrated, we need to be aware that something could happen. I agree with giving the benifit of doubt to the losing team. If I think a coach is trying to rub-it-in, then we are going to shoot a lot of free throws. I think we should do what is best for the game. I would never worry about not getting more games from a coach. If he is that type of person, I don't want to work his games anyway.

Todd,
With that in mind <li>Do we favor the team behind?<li>Do we apply the rules with equal disregard of the score?<li>Do we interject our individual values of fairness?
mick

"The value of a sentiment is the amount of sacrifice you are prepared to make for it." - <i>John Galsworthy, Windows [1922], act II</i>

Re: very different
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikec
Are you an educator? To me, this is all part of the educational process , and if I see something that is wrong I will call someone on it

No, I am a referee, not an educator. My job is to call the game.

Will a team up 40 and still pressing against an outmanned team get any breaks from me? No. As I said before, they get no breaks. As an example; if the ball goes out of bounds and it is close, figure who is getting the ball. Any contact on the press is a foul. A smart coach gets the message. Does it mean I am influencing the outcome of the game? No. the game is already decided. Does it mean I am trying to add a little sportsmanship to it. Yes.

I disagree with this philosophy. While the win/loss outcome of the game may already be decided, your statement that you are an educator should preclude you from making calls that detract from the education of the players in the context of how they learn the correct way to play defense, etc. If you change your calls because you don't like the way a coach is behaving, then players (especially on that team) become confused because now their methods are illegal when those same methods and actions were legal and accepted earlier in the game. It is just as wrong for you to "punish" those players as it is for the winning coach to "punish" the opponents by running up the score. In fact, I think it is worse.

A coach up 45 and pressing in a summer league game needs some guidance. If no one else will give it, I will.

As I said before, you have no idea why the coach is doing this. He may be practicing his press and it may have been understood by the other teams that this was acceptable. Besides, I do not feel it is my role to "give coaches guidance." I just call the game the same from beginning to end according to the rules and the a/d theory.

Wow:

You are defensive. I never said anything about illegal.

I said no breaks and if something is close they are probably not going to get it.

I don't break any rules and would not condone that. Why are you so concerned about the players. The integrety of the games i more important. In fact those players need to understnad that pressing an outmanned opponent into humiliation is not correct. Fogive me for being old-fashioned.

mikec,
Padgett wasn't being defensive.
He merely said he was gonna follow the rules.

It is outside the rules to bend the rules to the advantage, or disadvantage, of one team or another.

(<i> But I gotta say, Mark Padgett started it.</i>)
mick

MikeC - could you explain how changing the way you call the game- in the middle of the game-supports the integrity of the game?? I am confused by your statement about the integrity of the game...if a team is behind by 40 points, you are saying that you will change your calls, and then say that enhances the integrity of the game...I am seriously confused by those two statements...

Sadly, sometimes sports involves getting humiliated. It
happens. BTW, I'm reminded of a cute saying: "I love
humanity, it's just the people I can't stand!" :)

This "pouring it on" really does make it difficult for everyone. The losing team gets frustrated and so do the coaches. The losing parents are frustrated too because they don't like to see their prince or princess being humiliated. It is very tempting to start calling "breath fouls" against the pressing team and I certainly would not think less of a ref who did that, especially at younger levels.

That being said, my personal policy is to just keep calling the game as unbiased as I can. I hustle my rear off to try to be in perfect position in case there is a foul. I don't want to make the frustration worse by letting the frustrated team get fouled without a whistle. Remember that the winning team often has their second team in as well and it isn't fair to punish those kids with "breath fouls" when it may be their only chance to play.

I have found that these things eventually take care of themselves. The losing coach and/or the losing parents are generally upset enough that they follow-up on it and complain. Any league administrator with a clue will do something to prevent it from happening again. If not, don't accept assignments in that league anymore. Around here, all the summer leagues that I ref below the varsity level have a "no press" rule once team is up by 15 or more. At the the Varsity level, it isn't a problem because the coaches know each other and have enough respect to not do it.

Z

You ask if I am going to favor the team that is behind. I am not. However, I think this falls under game management. I would never suggest that we should ever compromise our integrity. I think that common sense has to be used. Once again I would say,"Do what is best for the game."

to Rocky
 

Please read what I said. Would I bleantaly change the game? No. Subtle changes and the smart coach gets the hint right away. Obviously, not all coaches are smart. If a team is up 40 they are up 40. If they are pressing an outmanned team and up 40 that is something all together different. That has no place in the game.

By the way that getting humilated in a game because someone is pressing an outmanned team is not right.

Do I have some comapssion? Darn right.

Ok...you still haven't answered the question...if a team is up by 40 and still pressing an out-manned team, and the coach is not smart enough to catch your "subtle" hints - are you going to change the way you call the game? And if you do, how does that help the integrity of the game, and your personal integrity as an official?

Up until now, I have managed to keep this a secret - but now the cat is our of the bag - I am a coach as well as a referee (Padge - please don't puke on my shoes :))

I have been in this situation as a coach - telling my players to press against a team that we were beating by about 50 points. The referee did exaclty what some here are suggesting - and clamped down on our play, calling fouls on our team, while similar contact by the other team went un-punished.

So what, you say? Well the other team ended up catching up (a little) and we only won by 32 points. Unfortunately we needed to win by 46 or more to ensure our place in the finals (we finished equal 4th on the table - so it comes down to points for/against).

In this case, the referees did not affect the outcome of the game, nor did they teach me (the coach) a lesson. They did however, punish my players, and effectively knocked us out of the post season.

The moral to this story - a foul in the last 10 seconds in the game, is a foul in the first 10 seconds of the game - regardless of how the game is going. Calling a game consistently is the one thing that referees MUST do.

Preach it, Oz!! Preach it!!

I must admit that in rereading my reply to mikec, I came across somewhat more confrontational in tone than I usually do. I must have been in a bad mood and I apologize. I think I posted right after I sat on that Pez dispenser. :p

However, I still maintain that not calling the game consistently from start to finish regardless of the score is the fairest way to treat the players, and is the proper definition of protecting the integrity of the game.

The players deserve a fair shake from the officials, even if they don't get what they perceive to be a fair shake from their opponent. I'm not going to penalize players because their coach is a jerk. Wouldn't it be nice if technicals against a coach didn't affect the score of the game, but perhaps their bank account instead.

Re: to Rocky
 

Well, I'm not Rocky but I must ask: when does your
compassion kick in? 20 pts? 40 pts? Is there a point when
you'll decide that it's time to toss compassion out the
window? When they whittle it down to 15 pts? 10 pts? To
me integrity means you call it the same from start to end,
period. All players are equal going in. Just 'cause one
side is up by 30 pts doesn't mean they have to play by a new
set of "subtle" rules.

summer league
 

Let me clarify. I am referring mainly to high school summer leagues. If a team is blowing someone out and playing half-court defense good for them. Thats why I work games that have a press rule now.


Again, from my point of view summer is a time for me to work on my game, and for kids to play, have some fun and work on their individual skills.

Danref: It does not take a blind man to see when a girls team is 45 points ahead on on their way to a 101 to 9 win that it is enough. Would I give the team getting beaten like that a few breaks. Yes. Am I going to call traveling on the 5-1, 155 pound 12th player on that team when she makes a layup with a few minutes to go. So she took an extra step. It's a rule though and so lets keep the score 101 to 7.
For that coach who had to win by 46 or more points. Where was that and who thought of the idea of using points as a tie-breaker. To have to keep pressing and running up the score has no place in sport.

I coached for years also and never ran up a score, although I had it done to me. Its not fun and has no place in high school sport. High school is not college nor the pros. These are kids.

While I disagree with many of you, I respect your opinions.

Whenever I get into a discussion of the role of the official, I always remember the words of Ed Hightower: "Be in control of the game without controlling the game." When you start changing your calls based on the score of the game, then you are controlling the game. That's flat out wrong.

It is not our job to level the playing field. Believe it or not, it is our job to make sure the best team wins. I know that sounds odd to some of you, but think of it this way - if you call the game consistently from beginning to end, if you apply advantage/disadvantage properly, if you call the game according to the rules and if you make the calls the same way for both teams - then the best team will win. And guess what? They're supposed to win. That's their reward for playing the best. And, if we do our job properly, that's what will happen.

Mikec,


What other tie-breaker options are available?
In the competition I was talking about my team (Manly-Warringah) and one other team (Sydney City) were tied with the same win/loss record - and we played each other twice and recorded one win each. So it came down to the overall points for/against to determine which team would place higher - so we had to make sure that we beat the team that we were playing by more than a pre-determined number of points.

Have a look at the World Cup - it uses the same scheme.

You say that you change the way that you call the game because you are compassionate - what about compassion for the poor kid that can't dribble and so get's double teamed everytime he gets the ball - do you change the way you referee him compared to the other players on the court?

And as far as your comment that the players are playing to improve their skills and have fun - have you ever played? Even from a young age all the guys I played with, played to win - whether it was a formal competition or pick-up.

And my overall point is this - it is the referees job to enforce the rules of basketball, not make judgements on how the game should be played. Until there is a rule that says pressing when leading by more than 'x' number of points is illegal, then any referee that changes the way that they run the game is cheating.

Re: summer league
 

Am I gonna call every foul/travel I see in a blowout? No,
let's keep the clock moving. Am I gonna bias my calls
against the team hell-bent on getting to 100 pts? No, both
teams deserve to play under the same set of rules.

Quote:

While I disagree with many of you, I respect your opinions.

Yeah, me too.

Oz, you should know we don't swing that way on this board! :D