Coach Citing the Foul Counts
 

First year ref.

I know in general we do not respond to comments.

How far do I let a coach go with giving me the foul totals per team as in "my team has a lot and the other team doesn't have many? Do I simply not comment?

My inclination is to let it go but I'm curious as to how others handle it.

If they keep mentioning the foul count I will address it. Sometimes I'll just say something like "Coach, I am aware of what the foul count is." and if things continue I'll tell them that they don't need to make any further comments regarding the foul count.

I'm cognizant of that fact, sir/ma'am... is there a question?

Spence:

At this point in your career just let it go. When you get to be an old geezer like me, I will sometimes ask the coach: "And your point is?" But my recommendation is to just let it go. If the coach had any sense he would tell his players to stop fouling. But I remember a boys' H.S. JV summer league game, where the team that was getting blown out at half time had committed 18 fouls to its opponents 4 fouls. The losing coach came up to my partner and me and asked: "What am I supposed to tell my players about the foul totals?" He was obviously not happy with the officiating. I told him with a straight face: "Tell them to stop fouling." His lower jaw hit the floor and away we went to enjoy some Gatorade. :D

MTD, Sr.

That is something you learn with experience when you need to address it, IMO. I can't concretely say when I do or don't address it, because I don't have particular criteria. However, there are moments when I'll address a comment a coach makes. Most often I will address it by just listening though.

Last night I had a great GV game with a top ranked team in the state and a conference rival. The visiting coach didn't like the unequal proportion of fouls his team earned. I let him have his say and said that we are calling what we see. I added that perhaps his girls were being a little more aggressive on defense than the other team as well. He agreed, end of discussion. I don't make it a habit to explain things like this but sometimes it helps the situation.

So I guess the answer to your question is that you have to feel out the situation and with experience you'll know when you may need to address it or just listen.

-Josh

A great reply I got from a college supervisor this year at camp was "Coach, I don't count 'em, I just call 'em". Of course he also told us officials to always be aware of the count to be aware of bonus situations. I do agree with the others who have said, as a newbie, let it go.

I have heard people say "I don't count 'em, Coach. I just call 'em." It makes your point, but it's kind of a smart-a$$ thing to say. So you might stay away from that one. Something that I have said that seems to work for me is, "Nobody knows it more than we do, Coach." That tells them that you're aware of it and that you might even "realize" that it's out of whack. (Doesn't mean you're going to try to even it out, of course. . .)

The gentleman below is correct, just ignore it for now. But just wait, as you advance you will be introduced to paranoia at levels you can never imagine, where they will actually tell you that you personally have called X fouls against them and Y fouls against their opponent, and ask for an explanation. That is always a treat!

"Coach, if you don't be quiet, the difference will be one more."

Don't you all think a nod of the head which acknowledges that you indeed heard the coach is better than "letting it go/ignoring" the coach? Especially for a first year official...

I agree...Just acknowledging that you heard him is sufficient.

-Josh

Do you really use the word 'cognizant'?

Yes, why what's up?

That just seems like a very odd word to use when jogging past a coach...

Fair enough... works for me though :)

cog•ni•zant:
knowledgeable of something especially through personal experience ; also : MINDFUL
synonyms see AWARE

Yeah I know what it means, but thanks so much. :rolleyes:

And you just proved my point - it sounds like a word someone would use to try to express that they are more intelligent than the other person. Just my humble opinion. I'm sure yours will differ.

Yes Smitty we hear you and are cognizant of how you feel!:)

:p Touche...

I didn't know it was that big of a deal. I'm sure they would rather me say that instead of "Look you whiney b&%ch I know what the count is, I called them."

BTW, did you have something to contribute to the OP or is nit-picking your MO? :rolleyes:

I was contributing by suggesting that 'cognizant' was a poor choice of words.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Last Tue, BV coach stood up waved his arms, "where's the foul"? Coming up court as trail table side, I say "coach please put your arms down, stop gesticulating" he looks at me all confused "ges-what"? I smile at him and say "we would appreciate better sportsmanship" coach. Rest of game he did not say anything regarding calls.

Sh!t, that's perfect when jogging past a coach. It throws them off guard and they can't come up with a quick reply. And perfectly illustrated by ref2coach's post.

I recently had this exchange:

Coach: "Your last four fouls have been against us"

Me: "Are you asking me to ignore fouls that I see?"

Coach: "I'm just wondering why all your fouls are against us?"

Me: "Believe it or not, I don't keep track. Just call them as they come"

Coach: "Fair enough"

This wasn't one of my "stock" responses, but since I was familiar with the coach, I felt I had some latittude and that's what came out of my mouth. Thought I might try it on another coach, but wondered if it sounded "smart*ss"?.

Stock responses include:

"I hear you coach"
"We'll look at it coach"
"Do you have a question, coach?"

Interesting... I read this thread and then I was poking around on the SI website and somehow ended up looking at this page.

I saw this:
•Earl Strom, NBA referee, to Philadelphia Trainer Al Domenico, who complained that Strom was assessing too many fouls against the 76ers in a game with Denver: "I don't count 'em, Al. I just call 'em."

According to that page, it was printed in the February 14, 1977 issue of SI. Apparently that quote's been around a while. It's always neat to me when you can see where/who pearls of wisdom like that come from. And then you laugh when you hear some grizzled old veteran claim something like that as their own. :)

Nah you're good, it takes a lot more than a beating around the BUSH-type critique from a BEAVERton resident to hurt my feelings.

I'm just used to dealing with adults who say what they mean & mean what they say...


Took all of those posts to say it was a poor choice of words :confused:
Reminds me of how my child attempts to set-up something through a series of questions.

I doubt that I will change what works for me because of your opinion but I appreciate your efforts.

Spence,
As a long time coach, this is one of the most absurd arguments a coach can make. The other related comments include the dreaded, "come on ref, call it both ways" -- when doing soccer I have been known to blow my whistle and point in BOTH directions at the same time (this only works for seasoned old-timers as it could result in a real mess, if you are not careful).:D

I think that it is a mistake to completely ignore the coach -- this will infuriate him even more. I will frequently make a comment that my partners and I are calling the fouls that we see. I will then ask, "Are you seeing anything SPECIFIC that you would like us to watch for out here?"

The answer to this one can go in a number of directions. If they indicate that you are missing everything that they are doing and seeing everything that we are doing, you know you have a biased-view coach and the only thing you can do is indicate that you are doing your best to see the actions of both teams.

On the other hand, in many cases, they will give you a specific -- my guards are getting bumped on the perimeter, my posts are getting moved out of the post, my guys are getting bumped on rebounds, or my gals are getting hit on shots. Now, you have something specific. You can respond, "OK coach, I will keep an eye out for that for you" or "OK, my partner and I will talk about that during the next break or at the end of the quarter" or "we will be watching for that AT BOTH ENDS."

In many cases, the coaches simply want to feel as though the officials are being fair, that the officials care and that they are willing to listen -- at least a little.

You don't need a lengthy discussion. You don't have to have a discussion with a coach three times every quarter. At the same time, if the foul count is very imbalanced, it is always good to be able to provide some (albeit short) explanation.

if he asks a question... I am aware of the count. I understand.
If he comments... say nothing.
If you know him well... "Mike you are pressing and they are in a zone."

Jeff,
Even if you don't know the coach particularly well, this line can be used. In some cases, when the coach thinks about it, he realizes that is a major reason for the difference.

I find this comment to be far less antagonitic than some smarta$$ comment like "well, tell your team to stop fouling!"

It is short. It is accurate (assuming they really are in a zone and he is pressing). It also justifies to some degree why the foul counts are not even.

I had a similar discussion with a coach a few years back. I said the same thing to the coach and during his time out he tells the players "you've got to stop fouling!" Priceless

Also had the game with two differing styles - One team driving the lane, the other shooting 3 point shots against a packed in zone. Needless to say, the team driving was getting fouled more often. Coach upset and complains. I tell him, coach the other team is just sitting back and you team is grasping at players as they drive to the basket, hence more fouls.

I've always wondered why the foul count is so special that it lack of balance is somehow indicative of....something?

If the score count isout of whack, does that mean someone isn't doing a good job of calling made baskets?

If one team has 5 travels, and the other only 2, does that mean something is wrong with the travel calls?

If one team gets more rebounds, is that something that the officials should address?

Why are *fouls* the one stat in the game that coaches/players/fans think *ought to be* balanced in some fashion?

Good job, MTD, Sr..

Reminds me of a Canada Goose question.

When you see a *V* of geese, why is it that one side may be very long and the other may be very short ?

In my experience, the coach who complains about this is always the one who didn't buy foul insurance. :rolleyes:

Because one side has more geese in it.

To the first, it may be indicative of unintentionally or intentionally partial officiating. It's often a false positive though because it may also indicate an imbalance of playing skills.
To the second, no. This is indicative of an imbalance of offensive execution.
To the third, depends. If both teams are traveling the same amount then yes. Otherwise no.
To the fourth, depends. Are they attaining those rebounds by gaining an advantage not intended by rule?
To the fifth, fouls are on the scoreboard. Even the most casual fan can look up and notice huge imbalances. Most of those casual fans can't tell if the playing styles are imbalanced. Hence, you're likely to get grilled for the sins of lesser officials.
________
How To Roll A Joint

A coach explained this to you?

YU.P. [or fowls]

Youngump,
I think that you are missing the point. We don't here the comment, "hey, ref, come on, the score is 10 - 2, call it even" or ""wow, we have been called for 10 travel calls and they have only be called for 2 -- let's call it both ways", or "they have outrebounded us 10 - 2 now, come on ref, even it out."

We hear about the foul imbalance because it is on the scoreboard AND/OR in the book AND, for some reason, some coaches feel as though there is some unwritten rule that indicates this one statistic should somehow be close to even during the game without regard to the circumstances within the game.

Coach "Boy the foul count is 7-2 against us"
Me "Which fouls do you think you didn't deserve"

Could they be members of the same family, and fly in a checkmark rather than a V to stay near their family?

GJV game last night, first half foul count was 10-1. Coach didn't say a word.

I had a middle school coach ( who was losing 19-2 ) complain about the foul count at half time. He yells, 7 fouls to 2....7 fouls to 2.....shook his head and walked away.....I looked at the score board, the 2 were against his team..... They just like to complain when they are losing....:)

I think that many coaches believe that if each team is playing a similar style of defense then the fouls should be "even" ... and they may have a point. However, plenty of times the teams are playing completely differently -- with one team taking a lot of open jump shots versus the other driving to the basket a lot. Obviously, in a game like that there could be great foul count disparity and it wouldn't indicate a problem.

The main thing that I try to keep in mind is that if the foul count is 7-2 or such, don't miss an obvious foul on the team that only has 2 and don't call a cheap one on the team that has 7!

Had no complaints in the game, but on the subject of foul counts: Last night's game was expected to be a huge blowout. Visitors had beat the team which beat the home team by 70. Home hung around in the first half, and trailed by single digits. Second half, visitors came out strong and won going away by about 30. Foul count for the second half: V 10 H 2

I had a coach point it out the other night. "We have six fouls and they have zero." They were up by four when she said it. I chaulked it up to her attempt to get us to go a bit easier on her team for the next four minutes of the half. Didn't work, though.

The overriding problem here is that there are so many different variables involved that it is difficult to cover them all to a coaches satisfaction. My team's very, very rarely fouled -- it was a very conscious decision on my part. There were three things I never wanted my players to do:
1. try to steal the ball from the dribbler/person holding the ball,
2. try to get a rebound when they had not earned the right by boxing out,
3. jump to try to block a shot.

My teams pressed, trapped, and played hard man-to-man defense in the half court. But, we typically made more FTs than our opponents shot. While some teams may have played the same "style" -- i.e. pressing, trapping and playing man-to-man -- they typically ended up with far more fouls because they implemented that "style" in a different manner.

While I see your point about the fouls and what to call or not call, I really don't want the number of fouls a team has to be the determining factor as to whether I call the foul or not.

Coach: "The fouls are 9 to 1!!"
Me: "Then tell your kids to stop fouling." :D

I have used the "Coach, I don't count 'em, I just call 'em." Not my favorite.

Here is one I have used that I didn't see mentioned....to the coach that is complaining....

Coach, the foul count only tells me that your team is playing more aggressive D.

If they persist...then I'll go to:

Creating a disadvantage when contact is made is a foul, coach.

The only reason I want to know the foul count is to know whether we're shooting free throws or not, not to change the way I'm calling the game.

If I get a coach whining about the foul count the one thing I won't do is just acknowledge that I heard him. That just empowers and affirms him in his mind. I either ignore him completely or answer him, usually with the I don't count em, I just call em. If he's a dim enough bulb to think the foul inequity is a reflection on me, then he's too dim to hear the comment as sarcastic.