Bench Technical vs. Player Technical

[whistlesblow]

Surprised this has not been discussed yet, but what is the protocol for assessing a tech against an individual player on the bench vs. the more usual bench technical assessed against the bench collectively? Obviously the call in the Duke / Georgetown game is the genesis for this question. It had a significant impact on flow of the game and player availability and media reports are questioning whether it was a fan who actually made the offending remark. The video reply shows that the ref was not looking at the bench when the comment was made, but turned in response to something said and T'd up the individual player. It had a big impact on the game - 4th personal on major contributor, etc...

How does this work? I do not recall seeing a player T'd up on the bench, one who is not up, yelling, actively doing 'something', but I have only been paying close attention to officiating for a short time.

Any help on the guidelines for this would be appreciated. Thank you.

[JRutledge]

I will answer, but I am not sure what you mean by "protocol."

No one on the bench can act in an unsportsmanlike manner just because they are on the bench. It is not necessary to look at the bench if it is obvious that something was said. Sometimes if a person has been running their mouths more than once and it is obvious who is talking.

And if a key contributor wants to stay in the game, then he probably should be quite while sitting on the bench.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

Surprised this has not been discussed yet, but what is the protocol for assessing a tech against an individual player on the bench vs. the more usual bench technical assessed against the bench collectively?

The usual "bench technical" is assessed against the bench collectively? I'd question that assumption.

The protocol is to blow the whistle and report the foul. I didn't see the game -- did the officials do something different?

[whistlesblow]

Thanks guys -

Near as I can tell the player in question had not been 'jawing' or otherwise getting up in anybody's face and GU players are not demonstrative like some - certainly their coach does not yell at refs like many do. He was a bit incredulous about his three previous offensive fouls, but hardly in an overblown manner, more just like a kid getting a little frustrated.

Bob - The offending shout or heckle or whatever it was seems certainly to have come from a fan behind the bench, not anyone on the bench, which is why it seems odd that the official went right after this player. Maybe JRut is right that he was being too vocal, but I have certainly seen a lot worse from players and coaches. Throw in that Cameron is a loud and confusing place and it just seemed strange that the official following the play could be so certain it was this kid. Maybe I am wrong that the tech is usually on the bench in general, but I don't recall seeing a seated player T'd up.

If anything a bench foul or a warning to the fan seemed appropriate. Absent seeing the guy call him out or being 100% certain, it is hard to see how you can effectively take a guy out of the game who has worked so hard to get there (and in this case appears to have done nothing warranting a tech).

I am of the school that says officials are not the ones people came to see and their impact on the game should be kept to a necessary minimum - maintaining flow and keeping the rules, etc. This situation seems to have gone beyond that, with an official becoming a significant factor. Just my humble opinion.

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The usual "bench technical" is assessed against the bench collectively? I'd question that assumption.

The protocol is to blow the whistle and report the foul. I didn't see the game -- did the officials do something different?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

If anything a bench foul

What is this "bench foul" of which you speak? If you can identify the offender, you give it to the individual.

I'm sure the supervisor is asking the right questions and that the official will be dealt with if he did this incorreclty. Since none of us were there, the rest is just speculation.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

I am of the school that says officials are not the ones people came to see and their impact on the game should be kept to a necessary minimum - maintaining flow and keeping the rules, etc. This situation seems to have gone beyond that, with an official becoming a significant factor. Just my humble opinion.

Bench personel are not allowed to disrespectfully address officials. If the comment from the bench warrents a foul then call it. You don't need to get into some type of psychlogical thinking to make the decision.

[whistlesblow]

Fair enough, but when you are talking about a Class A tech on someone on the bench, player, coach or other personnel, don't you have to be pretty dang sure who made the offensive comment before you assign it to an individual and not make it an administrative foul? This situation was a team follower (or someone else in the seats behind the bench). The official was not looking that way and there are easy remedies in place when you don't know who said something - i.e. admin tech. It seems like overreaching to jeopardize a player's participation iin the game based on conjecture that it was him - these guys work hard and deserve better from the officials, in my opinion. If there was no admin remedy that would be one thing, but there is and I guess I thought it should have been used in this case.

Originally Posted by LDUB

Bench personel are not allowed to disrespectfully address officials. If the comment from the bench warrents a foul then call it. You don't need to get into some type of psychlogical thinking to make the decision.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

Fair enough, but when you are talking about a Class A tech on someone on the bench, player, coach or other personnel, don't you have to be pretty dang sure who made the offensive comment before you assign it to an individual and not make it an administrative foul? This situation was a team follower (or someone else in the seats behind the bench). The official was not looking that way and there are easy remedies in place when you don't know who said something - i.e. admin tech. It seems like overreaching to jeopardize a player's participation iin the game based on conjecture that it was him - these guys work hard and deserve better from the officials, in my opinion. If there was no admin remedy that would be one thing, but there is and I guess I thought it should have been used in this case.

Did you have a conversation with the officials that none of us are aware of? If you did not talk to the officials, you do not know why they called the T.

And you do not have to look at someone to recognize who said something, if you recognize their voice or you know a particular person was making the comments. And if no one wants to get penalized, then shut the hell up. Then you will not have to worry about anyone assuming who said something.

The problem is you are obviously listening to media people who know nothing about rules or officiating procedures (but try to act like they do) instead of hearing from the officials that actually made the call.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

Fair enough, but when you are talking about a Class A tech on someone on the bench, player, coach or other personnel, don't you have to be pretty dang sure who made the offensive comment before you assign it to an individual and not make it an administrative foul?

Please explain what a Class A tech is? I can't find it in the rule book.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

Fair enough, but when you are talking about a Class A tech on someone on the bench, player, coach or other personnel, don't you have to be pretty dang sure who made the offensive comment before you assign it to an individual and not make it an administrative foul? This situation was a team follower (or someone else in the seats behind the bench). The official was not looking that way and there are easy remedies in place when you don't know who said something - i.e. admin tech.

There is no "easy remedy" for this. If it was a team follower who made the remark, then it should have been an admin T. If it was a Team Member, then it should have been a Class A tech on the team member. You can't say, "it was someone on the team, but I don't know who, so I'll make it an admin T." The official apparently knew who it was, or made a mistake. Shrug. It happens.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

Thanks guys -

Near as I can tell the player in question had not been 'jawing' or otherwise getting up in anybody's face and GU players are not demonstrative like some - certainly their coach does not yell at refs like many do. He was a bit incredulous about his three previous offensive fouls, but hardly in an overblown manner, more just like a kid getting a little frustrated.

Bob - The offending shout or heckle or whatever it was seems certainly to have come from a fan behind the bench, not anyone on the bench, which is why it seems odd that the official went right after this player. Maybe JRut is right that he was being too vocal, but I have certainly seen a lot worse from players and coaches. Throw in that Cameron is a loud and confusing place and it just seemed strange that the official following the play could be so certain it was this kid. Maybe I am wrong that the tech is usually on the bench in general, but I don't recall seeing a seated player T'd up.

If anything a bench foul or a warning to the fan seemed appropriate. Absent seeing the guy call him out or being 100% certain, it is hard to see how you can effectively take a guy out of the game who has worked so hard to get there (and in this case appears to have done nothing warranting a tech).

I am of the school that says officials are not the ones people came to see and their impact on the game should be kept to a necessary minimum - maintaining flow and keeping the rules, etc. This situation seems to have gone beyond that, with an official becoming a significant factor. Just my humble opinion.

Some thoughts:

I get the impression that you're a Georgetown fan. Could it be?

There's no such thing as a "bench foul." There is no "more usual bench technical assessed against the bench collectively." You assess it to the person who opened his mouth.

It makes no difference if the player "has worked so hard to get there." When you're on the bench, you'd be smart to keep your mouth shut.

John Cahill has worked several Final Fours and National Championship games. He was there, we were not.

[whistlesblow]

BBallRef -

I am a fan of the game and of the players, who I think deserve better than this. And in this case, it seems the player certainly followed your advice and kept his mouth shut, but he got T'd up anyone - hmmmmm.

Look at it this way - today the Duke student newspaper retracted an earlier story alleging that the player in fact said something and changed their story to the more widely reported 'someone behind the bench'. They could hardly be called GU fans, no? I think we all know CIS is a wild place to experience with 9000 home fans yelling persistently, which just exagerrates the oddness of the official claiming it was this one opposing player who was out of line vocally. As JRut pointed out, perhaps he knew the voice, which is interesting because since being made available for interviews, numerous DC media have reported on the distinct quality of this kids baritone. Makes it even harder to believe he mistook it.

There is a lot of good info and I thank everyone for their insight. I won't bother discussing Class A and B since I think that has been clarified now by others and glad to hear that their is a protocol in place for when you aren't certain who said what , as was sited in the example given later in the thread.

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Some thoughts:

I get the impression that you're a Georgetown fan. Could it be?

There's no such thing as a "bench foul." There is no "more usual bench technical assessed against the bench collectively." You assess it to the person who opened his mouth.

It makes no difference if the player "has worked so hard to get there." When you're on the bench, you'd be smart to keep your mouth shut.

John Cahill has worked several Final Fours and National Championship games. He was there, we were not.

[Adam]

I see it has begun.