Just like that

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by deecee

The old ones POE pertained to legal screen.

Right, but that same theory applies to guarding as well. I posted the rule on guarding, and the fact that the player cannot extend a leg into the path of the player. The POE just clarifies where "extending" starts (outside shoulder width).

Remember, it doesn't say the player cannot have their feet out there, just that they no longer are considered to have LGP and are thus more reponsible if contact occurs.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Right, but that same theory applies to guarding as well. I posted the rule on guarding, and the fact that the player cannot extend a leg into the path of the player. The POE just clarifies where "extending" starts (outside shoulder width).

Remember, it doesn't say the player cannot have their feet out there, just that they no longer are considered to have LGP and are thus more reponsible if contact occurs.

M&M, if you show me a defender who plays with his feet shoulder width apart, I'd be willing to bet he carries a clip board, stat sheet and pencil during the game.

Defenders NEVER play with their feet shoulder width apart. If a player is in a good defensive stance (feet about six to twelve inches outside the shoulders), has both feet FLAT ON THE FLOOR, is setting a solid trap with a teammate as the dribbler attempts to squeeze in between, I don't see how an official can call a trip on the defender (except for the OP team in the post IF this is what, indeed, happened). If the defender sticks his leg out into the path of the defender and the contact is made with the leg, I am OK with the block call. But, if the defender's feet are flat on the floor and he is assuming a good defensive stance and the ballhandler trips over the stationary foot, I don't see how this can be a foul on the defense.

[mick]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Defenders NEVER play with their feet shoulder width apart.

...Unless they're attempting to take one for the team.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by mick

...Unless they're attempting to take one for the team.

Mick, you are absolutely right. But, in most of these cases, a blocking foul is the result since the "skinny as a stick" defender is so easy for the offensive player to slide around. The defender then tries to lean into the path of the offensive player.

I see far more PC fouls being drawn by the defender in a good solid stance, obtaining a legal guarding position and maintaining that position until the torso-to-torso contact.

[mick]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I see far more PC fouls being drawn by the defender in a good solid stance, obtaining a legal guarding position and maintaining that position until the torso-to-torso contact.

Agreed.
Solid, wide stance up top, but shoulder-width stance in the paint.

[BillyMac]

I have always been of the opinion that there is a difference between tripping, and being tripped.

That said, what if a player is in legal guarding position, and has their feet wider than their shoulders, and, for sake of argument, has obtained that position on the court, and remains in that position for, let's say, oh, ten seconds, motionless, and then a dribbler tries to dribble past this motionless defender and trips over the defender's leg. I have a no call. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Please.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I have always been of the opinion that there is a difference between tripping, and being tripped.

That said, what if a player is in legal guarding position, and has their feet wider than their shoulders, and, for sake of argument, has obtained that position on the court, and remains in that position for, let's say, oh, ten seconds, motionless, and then a dribbler tries to dribble past this motionless defender and trips over the defender's leg. I have a no call. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Please.

How much wider than the shoulders? I think that matters.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I have always been of the opinion that there is a difference between tripping, and being tripped.

That said, what if a player is in legal guarding position, and has their feet wider than their shoulders, and, for sake of argument, has obtained that position on the court, and remains in that position for, let's say, oh, ten seconds, motionless, and then a dribbler tries to dribble past this motionless defender and trips over the defender's leg. I have a no call. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Please.

Legs extended wider than a "normal stance"....I have a block. The amount of time the player is there is irrelevant.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by mick

Agreed.
Solid, wide stance up top, but shoulder-width stance in the paint.

You show me a post player whose feet are "shoulder width apart stance in the paint" and I will show you a bench warmer. There is NO WAY a post defender can have his feet that close together -- especially since the offensive post man with his back to him is wider than that!!! If a post defender has his feet shoulder width apart, he will get drop-stepped to death.

If a defensive player is in a good solid stance -- if the defender is too wide, he will have no mobility and the offensive player will easily get around him even if the offensive player has to lift a foot over the defender to do it -- his feet will be wider than shoulder width apart.

If you doubt this, watch a televised high school or college game for a few minutes. Skinny-as-a-stick defenders will not be anywhere to be found -- with the possible exception of a defensive perimeter player not accustomed to playing down there.

[mick]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

You show me a post player whose feet are "shoulder width apart stance in the paint" and I will show you a bench warmer. There is NO WAY a post defender can have his feet that close together -- especially since the offensive post man with his back to him is wider than that!!! If a post defender has his feet shoulder width apart, he will get drop-stepped to death.

Sorry, Coach.
I was envisioning a defender legally playing straight up and being protected by the rules.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Defenders NEVER play with their feet shoulder width apart. If a player is in a good defensive stance (feet about six to twelve inches outside the shoulders), has both feet FLAT ON THE FLOOR, is setting a solid trap with a teammate as the dribbler attempts to squeeze in between, I don't see how an official can call a trip on the defender (except for the OP team in the post IF this is what, indeed, happened). If the defender sticks his leg out into the path of the defender and the contact is made with the leg, I am OK with the block call. But, if the defender's feet are flat on the floor and he is assuming a good defensive stance and the ballhandler trips over the stationary foot, I don't see how this can be a foul on the defense.

I would generally agree with this -- and my earlier "shoulder width" comment was meant to be "approximately." Perhaps better would be "elbow width" when in a deefensive stance.

And, just like the player who stands with the feet shoulder width apart, there are thosw who stand (or get caught in) a stance that's too wide -- and that becomes a block (in my game) if the offense trips over that defender's foot.