Just like that

Rita C · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 15, 2009, 02:02am

Two defenders on the player with the ball. She makes a break for the basket and trips over the foot of one of the defenders. I call a block. Defensive coach says, "How is that a block? You're telling me that if ball handler trips over someone's foot it's a block? How can you call that?"

A couple of plays later, my partner calls the same again on his player. I'm thinking, "Just like that, coach."

He didn't say anything that time to my partner.

Rita

CMHCoachNRef · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 15, 2009, 02:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rita C

Two defenders on the player with the ball. She makes a break for the basket and trips over the foot of one of the defenders. I call a block. Defensive coach says, "How is that a block? You're telling me that if ball handler trips over someone's foot it's a block? How can you call that?"

A couple of plays later, my partner calls the same again on his player. I'm thinking, "Just like that, coach."

He didn't say anything that time to my partner.

Rita

What caused you to call the foul on the defender? Had the defender whose foot got tripped over obtained a legal guarding position? If so, you probably have nothing (other than a lost ball by the offensive player). I have seen officials bail out the trapped offensive player when the player splits the defensive players and trips.

If the tripping defender was moving to get into a legal guarding position when the contact with the foot happened, you probably have a defensive foul. On the other hand, if the defender had obtained a LGP, you probably have nothing.

justacoach · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 15, 2009, 02:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

On the other hand, if the defender had obtained a LGP, you probably have nothing.

Please cite a valid rules based justification for this opinion.

ajs8207 · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 15, 2009, 02:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by justacoach

Please cite a valid rules based justification for this opinion.

In that play, he's stating that if the defender has legal guarding position, and the offensive player trips over his or her feet, we should not bail the offensive player out. It is a somewhat similar situation to where an airborne shooter jumps into a defender, hoping for a call to bail him out and give him two free throws.

ga314ref · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 15, 2009, 07:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by justacoach

Please cite a valid rules based justification for this opinion.

Rule 4-27-3.

CMHCoachNRef · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 15, 2009, 08:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by justacoach

Please cite a valid rules based justification for this opinion.

Well, to justify a possible foul in this situation: 4-23 (describes obtaining a legal guarding position) and 10-6-7 (which states a dribbler shall neither charge into nor contact an opponent in his/her path nor attempt to dribble between two opponents or between an opponent and the boundary, unless the space is such to provide a reasonable chance for him/her to go through without contact).

4-27-1 (the mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul) permits an official to ignore the very slight shoe-to-shoe contact IF the above two situations are true (LGP and dribbler squeezing between two defenders). The offensive player has already lost the ball. Did they really foul the opponent? Quite possibly not.

On the other hand, if the defenders did NOT attain a LGP, the contact with the foot can be considered a trip and penalized as such.

JRutledge · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 15, 2009, 10:01am

Based on the information I am reading, I have the same question as the coach. What did the defender do wrong?

Peace

Jurassic Referee · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 15, 2009, 11:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by justacoach

Please cite a valid rules based justification for this opinion.

The principle of verticality is applicable to the defender.
1)Rule 4-45-1-"Legal guarding position must be obtained initially and movement thereafter must be legal."
2) Rule 4-45-5- "the offensive player whether on the floor or airborne may NOT "clear out" or cause contact within the defender's vertical plane which is a foul.
3) Rule 4-45-6-"The defender may may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact OUTSIDE his her vertical plane which is a foul"

You only have 2 options if the defender has LGP and the dribbler trips over the foot of that defender...(1) a cheap player control foul, or (2) no call.

JRutledge · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 15, 2009, 11:26am

They myth has come true.

Peace

Rich · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 15, 2009, 11:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The principle of verticality is applicable to the defender.
1)Rule 4-45-1-"Legal guarding position must be obtained initially and movement thereafter must be legal."
2) Rule 4-45-5- "the offensive player whether on the floor or airborne may NOT "clear out" or cause contact within the defender's vertical plane which is a foul.
3) Rule 4-45-6-"The defender may may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact OUTSIDE his her vertical plane which is a foul"

You only have 2 options if the defender has LGP and the dribbler trips over the foot of that defender...(1) a cheap player control foul, or (2) no call.

Or the travel that likely results from the no call. That's usually what happens.